I really like Harlan Coben's books. I haven't read any of the Myron Boltair novels, but GONE FOR GOOD and TELL NO ONE were both entertaining thriller / mysteries.

I like Coben because he hooks me from the beginning, and he has good twists at the end...they don't seem thrown in from left field just to make sure you didn't guess them, they come out with some form of plausible motivation (to the characters, if not real-life plausibility :-)

Dennis Lehane is by far my favorite genre mystery writer. Mystic River would be the one to make a list like this, because it's a standalone that spawned a well-respected movie, and also is a really good book. Lehane's works are regularly getting adapted now, and I think his impact is significant enough to make the list--people really like his work.

The Silence of the Lambs by Thomas Harris, clearly.

Lush Life by Richard Price for a 21st-century, state-of-the-art literary crime novel that got rapturous praise.

Hmm, what else...

For books that formed the backbone of the genre, you need to read Raymond Chandler, Dashiell Hammett, Agatha Christie, and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. Any and all of them, really, but in particular, THE BIG SLEEP, FAREWELL MY LOVELY, RED HARVEST, THE MALTESE FALCON, MURDER ON THE ORIENT EXPRESS, AND THEN THERE WERE NONE, THE ADVENTURES OF SHERLOCK HOLMES. If you have never read Poe's "Murders in the Rue Morgue," that's pretty crucial as well. For more modern stuff, my favorites are Kate Atkinson's CASE HISTORIES (and sequels to that one), almost any Denise Mina book, Martha Grimes's Richard Jury series, Carol Goodman's LAKE OF DEAD LANGUAGES, Julia Spencer-Fleming's Claire Fergusson mysteries, and Tamara Siler Jones's Dubric Byerly mysteries (which combine fantasy/supernatural with mystery). Lots of people I respect love Michael Connelly too, but I was underwhelmed by the one book I read by him. My husband is a big Greg Rucka fan and he is not a mystery junkie like me. I think that exhausts my thoughts :)

Agatha Christie's Ten Little Indians (also called And Then There Were None). Most of her work was brilliant, but that one is a must-read. :-)

Seconding everything jen_alluisi said, and I'd recommend PD James as one of the back-bone authors. And The Talented Mr. Ripley (and, to a lesser degree, its sequels) by Patricia Highsmith.

These aren't staples, but are so damn good that I have to rec them: The Athenian Murders by José Carlos Somoza and The Club Dumas by Arturo Pérez-Reverte. Both are beautiful, haunting, and shiver-inducing.

Moonie!

Not my genre so much, but anything by Josephine Tey (start with Three by Tey). I loved THE MOONSTONE by Wilkie Collins. Agatha Christie, of course, and Sherlock Holmes. My personal modern fave is PD James. Have fun, and don't scare yourself too much! Peace...

Martin Cruz Smith - GORKY PARK. Phillip Kerr's BERLIN NOIR triology.

Good to see you're still around. :)

I agree with pretty much all of the ones recommended so far. Love Chandler.

I'd add (among more recent folks): much of Elmore Leonard's work; James Ellroy; not-quite-but-not-quite-NOT-in-the-right-category Stephanie Plum books; and Preston/Child's Agent Pendergast series.

Oddballs and outliers to keep an eye open for: Edmund Crispin; the Repairman Jack series... and oh gods, you're so well-read you'd love Jasper Fforde's Thursday Next series.

Here's a good resource site: Stop, You're Killing Me.

And, sheesh, with your foodie mentality: Rex Stout's Nero Wolfe series.

Here's fifty, in no order other than as they come to me, and with the admission that my personal tastes are on display:

The Maltese Falcon, Dashiell Hammett
Red Harvest, Dashiell Hammett
The Glass Key, Dashiell Hammett
The Long Goodbye, Raymond Chandler
The Big Sleep, Raymond Chandler
The Postman Always Rings Twice, James M. Cain
Double Indemnity, James M. Cain
Serenade, James M. Cain
Black Friday, David Goodis
Shoot the Piano Player, David Goodis
The Getaway, Jim Thompson
Savage Night, Jim Thompson
Pop. 1280, Jim Thompson
Strangers on a Train, Patricia Highsmith
The Talented Mr. Ripley, Patricia Highsmith
Dirty Snow, Georges Simenon
The Hunter, Richard Stark
The Man with the Getaway Face, Richard Stark
The Collector, John Fowles
A Dark-Adapted Eye, Barbara Vine
In a Lonely Place, Dorothy B. Hughes
Bury Me Deep, Megan Abbott
The Complete Sherlock Holmes, Arthur Conan Doyle
Rebecca, Daphne du Maurier
The Day of the Jackal, Frederick Forsyth
The Silence of the Lambs, Thomas Harris
The Deep Blue Good-by, John D. MacDonald
The Girl in the Plain Brown Wrapper, John D. MacDonald
In Cold Blood, Truman Capote
Crime and Punishment, Fyodor Dostoevsky
Shutter Island, Dennis Lehane
Gorky Park, Martin Cruz Smith
The Manchurian Candidate, Richard Condon
The Bottoms, Joe R. Lansdale
The Sculptress, Minette Walters
The Sins of the Fathers, Lawrence Block
Eight Million Ways to Die, Lawrence Block
La Brava, Elmore Leonard
Split Images, Elmore Leonard
Killshot, Elmore Leonard
Dance Hall of the Dead, Tony Hillerman
The Ax, Donald Westlake
And Then There Were None, Agatha Christie
The Black Dahlia, James Ellroy
American Tabloid, James Ellroy
The Dead Zone, Stephen King
Killing Floor, Lee Child
The Poet, Michael Connelly
The Doomsters, Ross Macdonald
Savages, Don Winslow

(And if you feel like it, Good Neighbors or The Dispatcher by me.)

I left a bunch of people and books worth reading out, mostly because making lists starts to get boring after a while and I felt like stopping at fifty, but I think the above is a good start.

For me Ruth Rendell's Inspector Wexford mysteries are a must read. Start at the beginning. PD James, Dorothy Sayers, Martha Grimes and Elizabeth George all on the list as well.

I think backbones need to include Raymond Chandler (though I find him misogynistic--still, he is a cornerstone) Agatha Christie, Robert Ludlum, Ken Follet's spy ones (Eye of the Needle is my favorite of the genre), Elizabeth George, Scott turnow, David Baldicci, Janet Evanovich

You've got some good reads ahead!

I don't read thrillers much but I do read mysteries, My list would start:

1) S J Rozan, CHINA TRADE (1st in the series; she alternates first person narrative from the two protags, Lydia Chin & Bill Smith, from book to book). This is one of the few current mystery series I still read
5) Spencer Quinn, DOG ON IT (also current; funny mysteries narrated by Chet, detective Bernie's Little's dog. Voice really is everything, and Quinn has Chet's voice down)
3) Dorothy L Sayers, STRONG POISON (love her Lord Peter character, and this one is the first with Harriet Vane in it)
4) Ellis Peters, any Brother Cadfael book (medieval monk/apothecary as detective)
5) Lindsey Davis, SILVER PIGS (ancient Roman mysteries, hilarious & rather sweet)
6) Josephine Tey, BRAT FARRAR (wonderful setting, wonderful characters, cool twist to the plot)

Mickey Spillane was wildly successful in his time, but he's not very good. Try I, THE JURY and you can be done with him.

HAVE HIS CARCASE by Dorothy Sayers is terrific and very smart. While Americans were going hardboiled, the British were playing a much more genteel game. Sayers's work is terrific.

You could fill a quarter of the list with Donald Westlake and his pseudonyms: check out THE OUTFIT by Richard Stark, a vicious little crime novel.

Ross Macdonald's Lew Archer novels are also very good: try THE GALTON CASE or THE CHILL. Skip the later stuff, as the author unfortunately starts using the protagonist to make speeches for him.

RED HARVEST by Dashiell Hammett is a terrific thriller and it may have invented a whole new plot.

John D. Macdonald's Travis McGee books were pretty damn popular at their time but they don't hold up all that well. All the "wounded birds" and such. CINNAMON SKIN is a good one to read so you can say you tried it, and if I remember correctly, that's one book where Macdonald doesn't do that thing where you can ID the female baddies by their fat behinds.

P.D. James's AN UNSUITABLE JOB FOR A WOMAN is pretty amazing.

Also, this may sound funny, but the early entries in Sue Grafton's "Alphabet" books were actually good. Try B IS FOR BURGLAR.

THE SPY WHO CAME IN FROM THE COLD by John LeCarré really stands out. I've heard the George Smiley series by LeCarré is very good, too, but I haven't read that series yet.

Patrick Lee's THE BREACH and GHOST COUNTRY are relatively new and kind of overlap with science fiction, but the way he uses the science fiction is played down and the books read like thrillers. THE BREACH kept me reading long past my bedtime——which is a major feat.

I just read THE FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT by Alan Furst and was really impressed. Will definitely be reading more by him.

WINTER'S BONE by Daniel Woodrell (or his TOMATO RED or THE DEATH OF SWEET MISTER) - incredibly written, stark, real.

I second (third? fourth?) The Big Sleep.

Here's a few others off the top of my head...

The Moonstone - Wilkie Collins
The Woman in White - Wilkie Collins
Mysteries of Udolpho - Anne Radcliffe (which gets talked about in Persuasion)
Night Train - Martin Amis
The Good German - Joseph Kanon
Anything by Barbara Vine (Ruth Rendell's alter ego).

My favourite series are the Commissario Brunetti books by Donna Leon. They're set in Venice, so food plays an important part too! I also love the Dalziel and Pascoe books by Reginald Hill, only because Andy Dalziel is how I imagine my brother would be if he became a cop.

I love you guys.

MOONIE!!!!!

Big Hug!

Dorothy Sayers' Lord Peter books, but by far, The Nine Tailors had me guessing to the last three pages. The only mystery book I didn't see the end coming just pages in.

Not really my genre anymore. How about a non-fiction entry Devil In The White City. I haven't finished it yet, but it's very good. Won an award. Um, some adult non-fiction award. *bad writer - must learn the awards*

Follows the architects of the Chicago World's Fair and the serial killer who used it to find victims.

Carole Nelson Douglas's Catnap, A midnight Louie mystery, is awesome, as it discusses and makes fun of a lot of the tropes of the genre.

Agatha christie, Ten little indians, as well as the first miss marple novel, The Murder at the Vicarage.

For crime novels, Obviously sherlock holmes. Less obvious, but just as much mystery and crime, The Caves of Steel, by Issac Asimov.

I think you might have to include a John D. MacDonald, probably the Travis McGee series. There are a bunch of those that are really good. Darker than Amber, The Green Ripper, Free Fall in Crimson. The last one might be my favorite.

I want to second the Dorothy L. Sayers! I love Agatha Christie (and I recommend in particular The Hollow, They Came to Baghdad, and Nemesis), but Dorothy Sayers' books combine the classic British mystery delights with a rich emotional complexity and a striking, modern ethos. The books reward repeat reading, as the characters are compelling. I'd recommend (in addition to the ones that your other commenters have recommended) Murder Must Advertise and Gaudy Night. If you're looking for compelling fluff, then Georgette Heyer's Why Shoot a Butler is both a quick read and a clever play on some tropes of that era of mystery writing. On John le Carré front, Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy and The Constant Gardener. In terms of Raymond Carver, The Long Goodbye (but after The Big Sleep).

There's a new kid in town. Check out Mirror Lake by J. Parrington Cole on Kindle. An indie book, but his book brings all of the elements of mystery in one. And it's fresh.

So while Mary Higgins Clark remains my number one 'go to gal' for mysteries, I suppose I could move her over a bit to make room for a new author.

I second the Clare Fergusson series, Jasper Fforde and anything by Arturo Perez-Reverte. But how has Robert Crais and his freaking fantastic Elvis Cole books(start with THE MONKEY'S RAINCOAT) not made it on here yet? He's also got some excellent stand-alone novels; read DEMOLITION ANGEL for sure.

I third the Dorothy L. Sayers Lord Peter Wimsey series, for the joy of watching the characters develop and deepen. And I second (?) anything by P.D. James - my absolute favorite is Death in Holy Orders for the subtle tension that runs through the book. Ruth Rendell and Susan Hill are wonderful for an understated paciness - the difference between Law & Order US and the excellent UK version.

Can you guess I like my suspense a little underplayed, with edgy, difficult to know characters?

RDJ - Awesome list. That one got clipped to my list of reading lists. I just used list three--four!--times in a paragraph.

Moonie, we are going to have your list when you've compiled it, right? Please issue a reading challenge because I also need to get a broader knowledge of the mystery/crime/thriller area.

You know me, Jane. A reading challenge is inevitable!

For thrillers, I'd say Lee Child is hugely popular right now (the Jack Reacher books).

I'm not sure that they're very popular sales-wise, but I really liked Joe Lansdale's Hap and Leonard books. The language can be a bit rough, but I love the friendship at their center.

I love Raymond Chandler and Dorothy Sayers et al.

For modern writers, Julia Spencer-Fleming is very popular, especially in cross-over with romance readers. Louise Penny is very popular around here (northern VT, NY). Authors like William Kent Krueger are really popular in MN - there's a lot of regional setting at play in the mystery genre, I think.

For things on the cozy end, I adore Elaine Viets's Dead-End job mysteries, which are the cross-recommend that Evanovich fans don't know to look for but often love.

There was a group of writers that kind of identified as "Tart Noir" that I liked - Sparkle Hayter's mystery series and Lauren Henderson's both really worked for me, but I'm not sure either series was ever hugely popular. They've got strong, consciously feminist leads and some relationship stuff, but are also funny and snarky.

I must admit to a really soft spot for the J D Robb, In Death series. It's set in an urban future featuring Lt Eve Dallas and her to die for husband Rourke.

It hits the spot; brutal but also character driven and gritty with excellent moments of humour.

i really love yoru blog.

My TBR pile just grew exponentially. Thanks guys! :)

wee! what a happy week! i need to be harsher with my students -- maybe they'llsend me choco-dipped strawberries and pineapple sticks! so glad to read you, friend. peace...

hi, linda!

Okay, you got a goodies from an author you REJECTED and asked out by a guy who thought you were awesome BUT YOU CAN'T REMEMBER.
Oh to live the glamorous life.
;)
I'm sorry. I'm just SO jealous.

yeah, it was a shockingly glamorous week. don't get the wrong idea. it's not usually like that.

in fact, it's usually editing at 9:30 on saturday nights (cf timestamp :)

Woot! What a great week you've had! I'm happy for you! :)

Moonrat, nice to hear from you. Those two stories are so sweet. Say high to the Rally Monkey.

You receive mysterious food from an author you rejected, and your coworkers jump to eat some? I'd argue that that's a good thing. You did let them go first, right? :P

Great to hear your stories and know that you had a good week.

Moonrat! So glad you are back! And I wonder if you'll get lots more edible arrangements from now on!

If only more guys knew how impressed women are by The Courtly Letter! Even on Match.com, most men send emails like, "Hey what's up I'm bored."

Nice to see you around, Moonrat!

You know, either one of those could be the set-up for a great movie...

It must be nice to know you're so awesome that your awesomeness comes through even when in the middle of a crowded event.

Josin--ha! Yeah, nothing short of a superpower. Forgive me if I'm a LITTLE bewildered about how it is possible that a) I made such a strong impression and also b) he waited this long to contact me if I did!

Oh, how romantic...he's been thinking about you...and finally got up the nerve to contact you...so shy. I love it! But I love the edible arrangement even more. Soooo cool. Like Linda, I think I'll start "rejecting" more...see if I get some sweets out of the deal.

That's awesome and I'm so glad I never took my follow off when you said you weren't posting so much any more :)

The chocolatey goodness is a good idea. Maybe I should send one to someone who rejected me so nicely and helped me find my way to being seen as a serious writer.

I miss your posts... *cough*

so cute! I hope you have a nice date!

Some weeks, woots and squees blend.

Ahh that's very sweet.

But asking someone out by email? If he has your email couldn't he have found your phone number and actually called?

(not to put a dampener on things just men are getting more and more scared!)

Loved both stories.

I thought Blogger goofed when I saw an update from you! What a pleasant surprise. :)

"Reject people more often." HA!

Awww! (to both stories)

I was about to ask you if you were going to go out with him and then I remembered the Rally Monkey. He probably wouldn't be down with that. Har.

Oh, and in case you were wondering if anything awesome had happened to your regular blog readers while you were gone...

http://msforster.blogspot.com/2011/03/we-interrupt-this-voice-series-to-bring.html

It's good to be reminded that good things can come in the mail and email. Who woulda thunk it? :)

An old fashioned date invitation by letter, involving gentle flattering!? I love it! So romantic. What oh what must RM have thought of this?

I can definitely see how a rejection could in fact help an author, especially one from you. How nice!

So are you going out with him?

That's a pretty positive week if I've ever seen one. Have you form-rejected the writer in story 1? Because good rejection takes a lot of work to read and extract meaning from, but if form rejection changed her life well...huh. Good thing that she's on the true path....somewhere else!

That is precious. And those sweet arrangements are expensive!
I gold framed my first rejection letter. What the hell, it was so very nice and encouraging. Haven't sent a submission in since, but some day I'll get the nerve again...

Have not dipped into the blogosphere in, oh, about a month (or more). And what do I find? An update from Moonie. My day, month!, is complete.

Great stories. And yeah - did you let everyone else eat first?
;-)

lol! it was hilarious!

Ok, to clear up a FAQ--no! I am not going on a date with that guy. My Rally Monkey of many years would be most miffed :)

What a pleasant surprise, getting this in my reader! Glad I held on to the subscription.

I'm with Jim, I want to know if you're going out with him!

HANG ON. A chocolate arrangement the size of a large mini fridge? Could you not have posted a picture? My God, what a treat. I am salivating at the thought of how great that thing must have been. Did you fall upon it like a hungry hyena?

Yay!!! Happy I decided to check in here today during lunch! Dare I check tomorrow!!??!! Could this be the beginning of my fantastic week?! Cute stories, awesome treat! LS

I, too, wondered if Rally Monkey was still in the picture...

Hope this means we'll be seeing more posts from you!

I'm with Amber Argyle on this - lucky you!

Those are adorable stories. Thanks for sharing! I hope we see more of you now that you're back...

Lovely to see you here!

And the second experience is one that always creeps me out. I wonder if it ever actually works as a courtship technique, for anybody?

y-y-you posted something!! XD
haha, it sounds like you had a fun week! :)

yep, still in my blogger feed.

Of course! Good to see the lights flicker on...hope all is well with you.

In Google Reader, still hoping for more Ratty wisdom to trickle out . . .

Yep. You're still on my list of industry blogs. There's still good info here for those in need of it. :)

Yes. Miss you.

Still on my list and in my reader.

yup :)

Like the others, I also still have you in my Google reader, hoping you'll come back someday!

Waiting for you to come back.

Living in hope...

And hoping things are going well for you!

I'm still subscribing! And every time you show up on my Twitter feed I do a happy dance. :)

Of course! <3 Hope you're well!

'Come back!' they cry, voices all husky like when Rose called out to Jack...

Google reader still remembers you...

Still missing you! I'm stalking you via Google Reader. ;-)

Still following, still missing your posts. :)

Also following via Google Reader! Was excited to see a post. :-)

Amy

Yep. I wish you would come back...please! You know you want to...Nice to see you stop by :-)

You're still in my Reader... nice to see a little flicker of life. I miss it too.

Hello! Yes, for some reason we all seem to have wistfully left you in our blog feeds. And lo and behold, you spoke!

Hi! You're in my Google reader, so I never left ... just waiting ... :-)

Miaou?

Yep.

Of COURSE we do!

We have the benefit of being able to at least visit with you, your parents, the RM and the Aunda through your words, safely stowed right here. Also, all the insider information that has proven more helpful than you could ever know keeps this blog in the corner of my eye. Always.

Ever hopeful, I left the link in my blog sidebar.

Absolutely still here. And happy to have the chance to say so. *waves*

You're still on my Google reader, too.

*waves*

Feed reader subs never die.

<.<

I'm still quite subscribed. :D *waves.*

Another fan here who has you on his Google Reader, and is VERY happy to see you're posting again!

Hi. No, I don't check your blog.

Do slow down at Facebook and Twitter (at least I think you appear there on occassion).

yup still subscribed as well x

Still subscribing and would love to hear what has been on your mind. :)

I check it. BTW, does anyone know if Pamela Ahearn is still an agent? You can reach anyone at her firm's number. Thanx.

Yes, you're still in my reader, and you are missed. :)

I don't exactly check in, but I was really quick to see what you were writing about when I saw there was a new post titled "just curious." :)

Hello!!! So nice to see a new post from Moonrat. I keep a link to you in my blog roll--it's still a fantastic read, even if it's not updated anymore.

yup yup! we all miss you

Yep, still see when you update.

YES! Come back so those of us who found your blog shortly before you shut it down can get new fixes. Thanks bye.

Well doesn't this just suck. I found you today and you've shut down the operation. Oh well, it's alright, there's lots to see here, and I love your Red list, so I'll be sticking around a while. I have a hunch you'll be back.
Enjoy the sabbatical, and the new gig.
But just so you know - I would have been screaming at you had I been around when you posted your "goodbye" note. ;)

Yep, still on Google reader and not even deleted during the last cull.

still on my google reader - miss ur posts.

I'm still here.

I miss you. *cry*

I'm still on the lookout for your posts. I've learned so much from you!

That's the beauty of The Reader. Still missing you.

Come back! Come back! COME BACK! (pretty please?)

Another Reader follower here. Though it looks like your question has been answered quite thoroughly already.

*Waving madly too!* I keep hoping I'll get a new alert in my Google Reader and here you are! We miss you too.

So come back once in awhile already :o)

Yes. You can drop a line anytime.

Drop us a line whenever you'd like....

Yes

Yet another vote for Google Reader--and Twitter, of course! We miss you!

Yes. I miss your posts. And contests. Your blog was one of my favorites, whether you were posting about publishing or not.

Suscribed to your RSS...probably at the second you stopped blogging. Been keeping an eye on you every since

If you miss it - come back

I still have you in my RSS feeds. So Halllloooooooo!!

I just found the site not too long ago, and I still look through :)

Yes!

Hope you come back!

Of course.

Mostly, it's to scan posts for useful information but there are times when my neuromuscular Moonie memory kicks in and my fingers click on your bookmark with the urgent facility of lights flashing from a spacecraft lost in the void.

Oh, okay then — I miss the lickle baby animoles...

Yes! We miss you!

this long stream of comments makes me very happy. hmm, maybe we can all work something out.

Pleased to see a post in my Google Reader ":)

You're still on my blogroll, so I still check here and some of my readers do too.

I'm here. Lonely little me. ;)

Moonrat

Still waiting for you to come around.

d

You post, it pops up in my reader. I haven't taken you off. I'm pretending there's no reason to.

Still in the old reader.

ditto on the Google Reader :-)

Still here! Haven't given up on you. :)

Yup, on Google reader, which means I also get it on Flipboard on my ipad - a brilliant app if you haven't seen it.

*raises eyebrow* Did you see how far I had to scroll down just to say - "yep". You're missed. (Hugs)Indigo

I technically only added this to my blogroll after you stopped, but seeing as you've asked, yes, I'm reading your post. ^_^

I still have you in my reader. I can't explain how excited I was to see a new post. :) I hope you're well.

Ditto for still in my reader. And one of your most inspiring posts is still on my wall!

Where have you BEEN? WE HAVE BEEN MISSING YOU!

WE MISS YOU.

*waves hand in the air* I still check!

Yep. Google reader.

*waves* still here

Hope you're doing well. :D

Beautiful. Anyone who has a love of art knows exactly what you're talking about here. I appreciate leaving the content up, I have definitely been strolling through the archives. Good luck, and don't worry about us!

Aw man, really? I'm so bummed! Well, hopefully we'll still see you around, somewhere!

*hugs* Good luck!

Good luck in the new job and of course life. I too always loved all the different things you posted about. Take care, be well and may you have the bestest life in the world. You've been a help to so many.
God bless you Moonie
your strange friend
peg

I rarely commented but often read, and am so sorry to see you go. I will miss you.

Still, I'm happy for your new job. Best wishes on a bright future!

Good luck to you! :)

Ah, Moonrat. Good luck to you, and thank you for a nice long explanatory post.

Thank you for everything. You deserve the awesome job and all other awesome that comes your way.

I'm sorry you're shutting up shop here but I understand that everything has its right time.

I hope I'll still see you around the internets on Twitter.

All the best!

I'm most sorry to see you go, Moonrat, but I want you to know how much you were a part of my re-entry into the world of writing and publishing. I rarely commented here, but often referred others to your insightful posts. I'm happy to see you're leaving the blog up for others.

Good luck to you, and I hope someday our paths will cross!

I wish you all the luck in your new career and Thank You again for all the insights.

As someone who is trying to get their MFA to become a writer AND editor, you're story here frightens and inspires me. I've always loved your blog- kept the tab open for quite some time, referring to it as need be. YOU are the editor I aspire to be. I don't ever want to be jaded by the business and think of self and business first. That's how I roll. I am a writer and I can empathize and you've given me hope that there are editors out there with the same values. I will sincerely miss your blog posts, though I haven't been here in quite some time, as writing, editing a small school journal, and school have consumed much of my spare time, but just knowing you were leaving was enough to bring me back. Good luck, moonrat. You have given me hope as an aspiring editor and writer.

As someone who is trying to get their MFA to become a writer AND editor, you're story here frightens and inspires me. I've always loved your blog- kept the tab open for quite some time, referring to it as need be. YOU are the editor I aspire to be. I don't ever want to be jaded by the business and think of self and business first. That's how I roll. I am a writer and I can empathize and you've given me hope that there are editors out there with the same values. I will sincerely miss your blog posts, though I haven't been here in quite some time, as writing, editing a small school journal, and school have consumed much of my spare time, but just knowing you were leaving was enough to bring me back. Good luck, moonrat. You have given me hope as an aspiring editor and writer.

Good luck, Moonrat! Thanks for all of the sage advice, the laughs, the tips...you'll be missed!

Colorado Writer aka Stephanie Blake

Best to you, Moonrat. I came for the publishing stuff, stayed for the stories of Momrat, Dadrat, the Rally Monkey, and others. Your voice will be missed.

Oh wow... This post exemplifies all the reasons EdAss will be so missed! I'm sorry to see it end, but I also completely understand. And most of all, I wish you all the best. You really have been a friend to authors -- those you've known and those you haven't; those at all stages of their career -- and for that I thank you. :)

I've followed your blog for your stories, advice, book reviews, and sense of humor. Thank you and best wishes.
Judy

Brava, Moonie. A class act.

Moonie,

Thank you... and good luck... and cyber hugs and congratulations.

All good things. Damn, that sucks though, because I am going to miss you unbelievably.

Thanks for everything and I know you'll keep growing in the industry... you're one of the gems.

Though I didn't always post, I read and I'm going to really miss your blog. As someone who also was 'downsized' I admire your persistence and positive outlook. Glad you found another position.

Wow. I'm speechless. So sorry to see the end of an era, but I'm so very happy for your new-found job and perspective. Best of luck to you in all your new endeavors. I've learned so much from you along the way!

Tawna

Very, very teary now -- Moonrat, you gave so much of yourself and even in this last posting you're reminding us all why we read you. We all so desperately want to believe that with enough people like you, books and authors (and readers!) can keep thriving, regardless of changes in publishing, the economy, or the national IQ. Thanks for doing far more than your share. And best wishes to you in all your future endeavors.

Thanks for a great run of a fantastic blog. I wish you the best.

First of all, congrats on the new job. I hope it's still in publishing.

I hope that when I'm part of that bigger picture, working with a big publisher and meeting the wonderful people who make books happen, that I will accidentlally meet you in person.

I hope you will whisper in my ear, "Hey. It's me. Moonie."

Looks like I'm not the only one who's going to miss your insights. *sigh*

Whatever, wish you all the best.

I don't know what to say to express how sad/excited/satisfied this post has made me feel.

Thank you a hundred times over. I've learned so much from you and have loved the glimpses you've given us into publishing and your own world (mice included).

Thank you for being such an advocate for authors. All the best. I hope our paths cross someday... (I'm thinking sushi with Agent Michelle... ;)

First Miss Snark, and now you. Truly, good things never last forever. But you did convince me to leave my agent--through one of your posts--and now I have a new and better one. I'm sure they know who you are. So maybe we haven't seen the last of each other.

When one door shuts, another opens. So glad you found your way through to the other side, Moonie.

Wishing you peace and happiness and more precious time to spend with your favorite authors, non-icognito.

We'll definitely miss you, but I'm so happy things worked out! Best of luck to you in your new position. I'm sure you'll continue to make the publishing world a better place!

Congratulations on the new job. Thanks for your time here. I've enjoyed being a part.

Good luck!

Love you, Moonrat!

Will miss you, moonrat! Best of luck with everything.

Well, in the immortal words of my father: "Crap."

I've really enjoyed every aspect of this blog, and made it part of my daily reading... especially when I should have been doing something else. You've been informative and funny and tremendously entertaining and I wish you all the best.

May an all-you-can-eat sushi bar open next to the all-night chocolatier just around the corner from where you live.

Thank you and good luck!

Good luck with everything. Thanks for great posts.

Sniffle. We all hate change, don't we? But I'm so happy your changes have been good ones.

I've been wondering if there's a normal lifespan for a blog--maybe 3-4 years? Miss Snark lasted 3. It may be we run out of things to say at a certain point.

Thanks for all the wisdom and humor.

Oh, Moonrat! I've never commented before but I love your blog and will miss it tremendously. I work in the industry and got much solace from some of your posts. Good luck and thanks for all the funny.

First, congrats on the new job!
Second, you'll be missed here.
Third, thank you for choosing to leave this up for us to reference as needed.

Best wishes, Moonie.

We'll miss your ass. ;) And just so you know, I have learned a lot from your blog.

Hope your new career keeps you happy!

I didn't get here until the end, but I loved your blog and all of the things you had to say.

I wish you the very best of luck!

Thank you for all you've given us. You will be missed.

Best of luck, Moonrat.

Thank you.


Eric

Oh, I'm so sad! Thanks for all the wonderful posts, Moonrat. *sniff sniff* I'll miss your little ratty face.

Please take care and thanks for all the joy and laughter you brought me (and many others) through your blog. Boy, I didn't even realize you originally started this blog to rant. Most of the time I was smiling at your posts!!

All the best,
Amy

Damn. This means I can no longer stop by and read your words of wisdom. I even gotta take your blog name off my blog's list of stuff I read (that's how much I like Eddy Ass).

I HOPE your new job stays perfect and lasts forever and that you'll always be happy in it. Thanks for caring and loving and being there for us writerly types.

You rock, Moonie. It's been a pleasure getting to know you.

I'm going to really miss you and your posts, but am very happy that life opened a door and things are looking up. You deserve every happiness.

Moonrat, you are breaking my heart. I love your blog. Good luck.

I'm going to miss you! *sniff*
Loved the personal stuff, loved the work stuff -- you're a gem.
As for more of the insane gossip stuff, yes please! (Can't get by without my dose of insane gossip to keep me, well, relatively sane.)
Good luck with your wonderful new career! They're lucky to have you.

This is like Ms. Snark all over again!!

you're going to be sadly missed, your blog was often the highlight of my google reader and I;m going to really miss your posts! I hope you still have some time to pop in to FITG!

Thank you so much for your wonderful advice and general awesomeness.

Wishing you all the best for the future

*hugs*

This has been a most excellent blog. I'm sad to see it go, but I'm happier that you are pursuing your dreams, and I wish you all the best, and better!

Wishing I would have commented more and gotten to be one of the in-crowd. Still I will miss you and your take on the publishing world.

I'm one of those "late comers" that found your blog after you'd been here for years. I appreciate every word you've posted. Thank you for the phenomenal content and good luck with everything. Also, CONGRATS on your not-so-new-but-still-so-very-very-awesome job. You deserve it! We'll miss you!

I am deeply moved...and inspired. Thank you.

Well, there you go. Thanks for everything, you've been a resource that's helped me become a better writer and to understand publishing. I feel a litle choked up, but I guess thats the psychic in me. I knew this moment was coming and I've had a similar experience with another blogger I respected. Good luck with everything. Love and peace Moonie.

Miaou - purrlease look after yourself!

A Moonrat-shaped hole on the horizon I can just about handle — but what about all the baby animals? Weird baby animals might leap through from the other side, sweep us away with their weird fur?

Thanks for all your enthusiasm, and best wishes for the future.

Goodbye and good luck. *hugs*

EdAss was one of the first blogs I started following for writing and publishing info, and I can't even begin to recount all the times you've posted just the right thing at just the right time for me. I'm glad you're keeping it available for others to discover on their path to publication. :)

Good luck, Moonrat! I truly believe that sometimes friends (and blogs) come along when you need them and then, when you don't, move on their merry ways. Your new job is lucky to have you and all your energy! So you go, girl. :-)

Good luck in your new job, Moonie. It's been a real pleasure. Here's to happy endings and new beginnings.

If you ever feel as if you want to trade in your venting hat for your teacher hat, please come back to us. There are tons of smug bloggers who fill their spaces by making fun of the poor schmucks who are bleeding ink in vain hoping to become published, but there are only a handful of places where anyone can go for sound advice from someone who is genuinely experienced, empathetic, and intelligent. I hope that someday you find that you have lots more to say.

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!! Don't leave me!!!!!!

*sob*

Okay, now that I've gotten my selfish whine out of the way, thank you for what you've created here. And for being so wonderful. I miss you already...you and RM.

Best of luck, and I am sorry this blog won't go on, but I am really happy to hear you happy. Best wishes, Moonie! (Hmm; spelled a little like heinie.)

I'm sad you're leaving us, but happy that you've found a job you love.

Wishing you the best, moonrat.

Moonrat, you've been a tremendous source of insight and compassion throughout your time writing this blog. I've learned a great deal, and I'd be honored to one day work with you on a book. Best of luck moving forward, and thanks again for your generosity over the years.

Oh, Moonrat. Thank you so much for everything you've written here, and for keeping the blog going when it might have been easier to pack it in. I'll miss your posts and your advice!

Moonrat, I looked forward to your insightful and hilarious comments, and yes, I really loved your bridesmaid stories. You helped this "pre-published" picture book writer learn valuable information about the industry and about the do's and don'ts of how to do just about anything related to writing. We'll miss you but I'll be checking back when I have a question and I'll snicker again at your responses. Thank you!

Good luck!!!!! xoxoxo

jesus. i knew this was coming yet reading it still makes me sad. it's like an end of an era.

but anyway.

you've done a lot for a lot of people, as you can see by the 80 comments already posted. you were never an ass :)

<3!

and u know u have to send me that web address.

And so Moonrat joins Miss Snark on publishing's Mount Olympus, where you will found a new pantheon of mythical goddesses.

Good luck!

*sob*
I feel like I'm losing a friend.

But I also understand how a blog can run out of puff, or how a write can outgrow it.

Many years ago I had a blog under an assumed name and it was a wonderful outlet, but my life changed track and it was time to wave goodbye.

Very best of luck with whatever you do. Hope we can stay in touch via facebook.

So sorry to see you go, but thrilled that you've found a great job. Thank you for all the time and information you've given to writers. All the best to you, moonrat!

Thanks for everything and congratulations on the job. Everything has its season, so it's great that you can walk away knowing you gave and received a great deal. You will be missed!

As we used to say in the Coast Guard, "Fair winds and following seas." I'll miss it.

I'll admit that I haven't been hanging around here for very long, but I've loved every step of the way. With no more posts from you or INTERN, I'm going to have a lot less publishing-related laughter in my life. Thank you for all the wisdom you've imparted, and good luck for the future!

Best of luck to you. I can't imagine how hard it's been to remain anonymous with all that going on -- and to keep a positive vibe on your blog all this time.

I"ll miss your posts, but I'm glad to hear we'll still see you around.

This, along with Miss Snark's corner of the web, is one of the blogs that helped me get to where I am in my writing career. I'm actually making a living from writing because of those two blogs. I'm truly sorry to see it mothballed, but happy that you've moved on to bigger and better things. Any author would very, very lucky to have you as an editor, and I'm sure your writers are glad you landed on your feet.

i'm so sorry to hear that. :( but i understand you have your reasons and i really, really wish you all the best in your new job and everything! oh, please, please be happy!

you've been such a great help, an awesome source of advice, encouragement, blunt, down-to-earth-honest fact, wit and humour. believe me, i think you are an amazing editor, and i think you'll keep doing awesome things to come!

i hope you'll keep taking over the world, ahem, taking over your new workplace wherever you go! take care, moonie, don't ever give up! hope you'll keep smiling and giving those witty oneliners! even so... i will miss you very much. :(

Madam, it has been an incredible pleasure. Thank you for giving your time and insight as long as you did.

Please keep your Twitter feed, at least? We like you. We want to stay in touch.

A wise French man, who is now my husband, once said, sometimes "goodbyes" are replaced with "adieus."

Good luck, Moon Rat.

Best with everything, moonrat.

So sorry to see you go, but wishing you the absolute best! Thanks for everything you've done and everything you've shared.

Good luck, moonrat! Very sorry to see you go, but very glad to hear you've landed in a good place!

Too many folks probably let their blogs die a slow strangled death rather than make the courageous decision you've made here. We'll miss you of course, but it makes sense with where you are in your life now. Luck, always.

What an honest, wonderful post. You've captured the anxiety and the hard work these times seem to invoke.

All the best to you. But those 5 words just don't feel like a big enough thank you for all that you've done for your readers.

I remember when I first stumbled onto your blog and how safe it made me feel. I couldn't survive as an editorial ass myself but I love that not only did you survive but you thrived and became an editor. And you didn't stop there. You went on to become a compassionate, helpful, hilarious, and patient resource for all of us struggling writers out here in unpublished land. I'm so grateful for the information you've shared and for getting to meet you through this blog. Wishing you well and I'll see you soon.

Selfishly, I'm sad to see you go, but I'm glad you are in a better place career-wise.

I'd love it if you'd post every once in a long while. You have such good advice to give.

See you 'round.

Selfishly, I'm sad to see you go, but I'm glad you are in a better place career-wise.

I'd love it if you'd post every once in a long while. You have such good advice to give.

See you 'round.

*Sigh* But it's been a great run. Thanks, and best of everything to you.

Aw, another publishing-industry blog winds up. Seems to be happening a lot lately, but I can understand that in the end there's only so much to say. I hope the new job continues to be wonderful, and that I'll come across you on a new blog or venture one day.

Thanks for all the great advice and for creating a community.

xxx

i send you a great round of applause and a bouquet of thank-yous.


-- Tom

Good night and good luck, EdAss. Yours was the very first publishing industry blog I ever found, and I've appreciated the knowledge you've shared. To the future!

((hugs))

Thanks for all your advice over the years!

How can we possibly complain if you are ridiculously happy? Short answer: we cannot.

May we all be so lucky as to land in your slushpile. :)

xoxo!!!

Jill :)

I'm glad you landed on your feet, Moonrat. Your sage advice will be missed,

Thank you - I've so enjoyed this blog. Hope that all goes well!

Happy Trails Moonrat.

I've enjoyed all your posts (Editor stirring your coffee with his eyeglass arm leaps to mind).

Thanks. dylan

No shame in layoffs any more. Happened to me too. Let the corporations be ashamed for what they've done to us; we need not be.

And as a writer, I can tell you that I have found this blog not only helpful but also somehow
encouraging.

Thank you.

Thank YOU for all the wonderful advice you've shared here. I'll miss your wit as well as the gentle guidance. I guess when I miss you, RM and the Aunda, I'll just pop over and reminisce in the archives.

Good luck in the new career.

*Hugs*

ah, you're making me tear up!

I just have to say: I'm sure the new job has nothing to do with luck and everything to do with hard work, editorial prowess, and sheer grit. you deserve it!

Moonrat, I mostly lurk here but wanted to offer you a big congratulations--what an inspiring story! I wish you all the best of luck and THANK YOU so much for
all your time and invaluable input.

BTW, can you please please let me know the other site you write at? I would love to read
your stuff!

that funny sound you hear is me gnashing my fangs in frustration.

I love this blog.

However, I adore you more than any blog, and I know you didn't make the decision lightly.

I'm sticking you with the sushi bill till I quit weeping though: be forewarned.

Dang! Well, I'm happy to hear that your closing up shop is basically for good and happy and hopeful reasons. Thanks for all of your wonderful posts over the years. I've really appreciated them...

Have often read; have never commented- until now. I am an author, and I just feel so touched and lucky that there are people out there like you who want to work with us. Have loved your blog; have valued your advice. Thank you and all the good luck in the world. xxxx

You will be missed - I will miss you here. This is my favorite publishing blog. Much luck, Moonie, you've brought many smiles to my face and given me endless things to ponder. Maybe some day our paths will cross again :)

Wow. I was tinking as I read this post -- your blog has made such an impression on me, it has helped me in ways you could never imagine.

But I am wrong. It's not the blog who has 'helped', it is the Woman behind the Curtain who has. Through the small personal touches you have built community and relationship, and I will so miss you.

Thank you for your dedication to the book, to the writers who struggle to get their words 'out there', to your passion. Peace always...

I'm glad you're still blogging, even if at a completely unrelated place because some of the best writing here was about life.

Be looking for an email from me -- I'll trade you my other website for yours.

Best of luck!

Awww, moonie, I'm going to miss you. Though I rarely posted, you had/have! one of my favorite blogs. But I'm glad things worked out for you. Much hugs {{{{{Moonrat}}}}

Totally sad to see you go, Moonie. But at least you're leaving for good reasons. I loved your blog. Thank you for all the great advice. xoxo,

Standing ovation!

Thanks for all your advice over the years!

Adding my thanks for all you've given us writers over the years--the advice, the laughs, and the support.

I think you're right--you sound like the kind of editor I'd love to have in my corner.

I'll be away when you get back! Catch up in September.

Hump?

Whale or camel?

Or both?

Your weddings are getting out of control.

Drink a glass of wine for me.

Don't be sorry, Moonster. We're grateful for your great blog. And we understand that you have a job to do. When you've got time to get back to the blog, your Rat Pack will be here waiting.

stop apologizing.

知識可以傳授，智慧卻不行。每個人必須成為他自己。. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

You said "hump."

As a romance author, I am morally obligated to point that out.

Tawna

As a midlist author with a Big House Publisher, I would *very* much like to know why the midlist exists. Thank you.

As always - very nice run down. This should be required reading for everyone interested in publishing!

ok, Anon. you got it. i'm out of steam for this week, but it's a good post for next.

Awesome post, moonrat! Easily the most even-handed thing I've read on the topic--thanks!

Wow. I'll have to bookmark this and come back later when I have more time. You are seriously awesome for writing this. Thanks!

Thanks, Moonrat! This was really helpful. Does it take different numbers of book sales to be considered "successful" for each kind of publishing? For instance, if one topped a certain number of sales with a small publisher or as a self-published book, but still didn't reach the numbers possible with a big pub, would that be taken into consideration if the author tries to sell future books? (Not the same book).

This is a really good post, and I, too, would like to know why the midlist exists!

I would have liked to have big press distribution and sales but most of my stuff is niche stuff and the small press was the place where I needed to go. I recently tried the self-publishing route with a collection of stories just to see how it worked. It was fun.

Nice post :) Very well worded and good specifics both ways. Thanks for that.

hmmm word verification = angst

Thanks for taking the time to write such an in-depth analysis of the options. I'd always thought "the bigger the house the better your book will do," but you made some really compelling arguments for indie publishers in certain occasions. Thanks!

Bookmark time! Superb post. Best I've seen on the subject. Thanks Moonrat!

Thanks for this concise breakdown. This is the best sumamry I've read as of yet.

thank you for this, moonie. so informative as always!

Thanks for the gift of your time on this post!

Very informative breakdown! This is going into my bookmarks.

That's a brilliant breakdown, moonrat!

I suspect self-publishing could probably break down further into those who create print books, and those who go purely for ebooks. I know little about publishing, but quite a lot about software, and ebooks look to me much more like a software business than a publishing business.

Great post! Lots of information presented in a helpful manner. That was kind of you to take the time.

There's been a lot of fuss in bloglandia about the differences between vanity press, self-publishing tangled with a labyrinthine score of other issues. It's hard to tell the music from the noise.

I have a few friends who self-publish. Some are so talented I'd love to see what a big house could do for them. Others need a bit more guidance.

Anyway, cool post.

Gary--well spotted. In fact, you saw into my brain. I originally had a fourth category--ebook only publishing--but got sick of typing the darn blog post and called it quits after doing the first three. HA!

However, it sounds like you might have more interesting things to say on the subject than I do anyway...

Nicely put and very extensive, but I think you left out university and scholarly presses, which are very important for nonfiction, educational and, as of late, literary works (the literary books are usually published under book series, like the University of Nebraska Press's Flyover Fiction series, and through book prizes for poetry and short story collections). I think they may fall between the big houses and the independent publishers. Some are small houses, of course, but some are huge, like UNP, or Oxford University Press, or the University of Texas Press.

Their print runs may not be as big as the big houses, but many times substantial. Also, their advances may be smaller or, in many cases, nonexistent, but they won't make you pay for publishing your book! Some have small marketing/publicity teams that push your books. Again, not as much as the big houses, but enough for many happily university press published authors.

Moonie, thank you for the most cogent breakdown of publishing options I've ever read. Brilliant. peace...

Thanks, Moonie. Sent this out to some people as an excellent resource.

Thanks, DeMisty. good call on UPs. There's another post someone besides me is probably more qualified to write...

Very nice post.

I know of one person who self published a non-fiction how to book, and has sold many copies, including on Amazon. This is a book that he wrote, and could not get published at a normal publishing channel.

He is an expert in optimizing large boilers, and contracts out to utilities. What is interesting is that the people who hire him are also the people who buy his book. They read it, and then hire him again.

Indie publishers also have a mid-list: i.e. they have books that are low priority in comparison to others.

And 'mid-list' may in some cases simply be a euphemism for 'bottom of the list'. (If there's a top and a middle, there obviously has to be a bottom too.)

I am 'bottom of the list'. I've published two books with very respectable indie publishers, both of which have had little effective media support, and have struggled to make any impact saleswise (the totals are probably more or less equivalent to a moderately-successful self-published book).

As a result, my existence remains marginal. Selling the next one will be even tougher, and the advance will be peanuts.

One of the best breakdowns and recaps I have ever seen! Excellent!

And thank you. :-)

I can only say three words in response to this post.

I love you.

~bru

So helpful and direct, thank you for taking the time to write and share this.

Thank you for an informative and detailed post. I appreciate your effort. I love it here.

This is the most unbiased look at the different publishing options I've ever seen. Fantastic job, moonrat. Thank you so much.

Great post...a bit rare to read something from someone in publishing who doesn't just automatically write off all self-pubbed works.

I also would love further explanation of midlist.

I've always wondered: if you publish a book of, say, short stories through a university or indie press, how could that impact your future chances of publishing a novel through a big house? I know they look at numbers, but wouldn't a collection from a university press be understood to be a different sort of thing? And what if you published a book of poetry through a university press -- surely those sales numbers wouldn't affect your changes of selling a novel to a big house, right? I just hope they wouldn't see low sales numbers from a university press book of stories/poems (where low sales numbers are expected!) and not give you a chance on a novel.

I self published two books, regional titles about cooking, and did well enough with them; I sold a combined 2,000+ copies, got them in a local Barnes & Nobles with no trouble (and Books a Million contacted me!).

In retrospect, the books needed more editing, more tightening up. That is a big con about self publishing. Since the writer is also the editor and publisher and VP of publicity, it's terribly hard to be objective. Good editing is essential.

I'm writing a novel and I will go the traditional route with it. I think self publishing would be a hard way to sell and promote a novel.

Great post!

Anon--I do think people make allowances for UPs--there is some understanding there.

Keetha--thanks for chiming in! Your story perfectly fits my model :) I appreciate the justification.

Great post. I s/p my poetry books for fun. With my novel I want the experience of querying and waiting. I want to say I have tried it this way first. In a few years if I am still on the rejection road, then maybe I will s/p just to hold a copy in my hand.
Patience is my friend at the moment.:)

I liked Keetha's comment that "since the writer is also the editor and publisher and VP of publicity, it's terribly hard to be objective." Writing, illustrating, editing, designing, marketing, etc. are all very different jobs, and few people can do more than one of them at a top level--there are wonderful author/illustrators, and many writers can also self-edit well, and there are a few people who can write or illustrate AND market, but to combine all those tasks in one person is pretty close to impossible. This usually shows in the final product.
I'm like Anonymous--midlist author at a Big House.

Fantastic information. Thank you!

loved the way you explained things. Much better many here
mba

Great post indeed. This kind of post is a must to read. It is so informative. I will be visiting this blog for more info and updates.

I am glad to see someone tackle the topic.

Today publishing options are changing so quickly that it can make your head spin.

A few years ago I would not have considered self-publishing at all but actually constructed an ebook last year...technology still has to catch up.

One thing I would mention is subsidiary publishing--some small houses partner with the author and have a team for marketing, design and a distribution channel with major distributors--always needed and always good.

As for me, I got passed around after signing contract with a major publisher and decided to part ways.

Had a small independent house for one book and a middle sized publisher (division of B&N) for the next.

As you state, pros and cons both ways. I am leaning towards the entrepreneurial spirit of smaller publishers but I think the publishing model over all needs to undergo some serious change.

AS someone who is totally confused about what to do next with my fits-no-box(Internet) writing, I appreciate both the information and the kind tone of your article.

Thanks for this brilliant run-down of the options available in the print segment of the publishing industry. But what about the epublishing segment?

Moonrat, what about how misleading some self-publishing companies can be? I just think this should be pointed out. No, certainly not all are, and it doesn't change the fact that self-publishing really can be an excellent option in some cases. But lately I have seen ads that are just horrifying -- like hinting that your self-published novel could possibly get picked up by a big house for a 6-figure advance, etc. And I'm not even talking about the out-and-out sham companies, either. It's so depressing.

Anon 12:01: you're totally correct. And it is sickening. The thing is, the people most being taken advantage of by this, erm, entrepreneurialism are the ones who don't arm themselves by researching (ie, the kinds of people who probably won't ever encounter this blog post). This makes me sad.

Every single day that I work in publishing, I see innocent ignorance that could potentially hurt an author. Just this morning my office got a call from someone who wanted to know how much it would cost to publish his book--and we are a respected, traditional trade publisher, nowhere google-able as a vanity press, so not sure where he got that idea. Sometimes, if a call slips through and I end up talking to someone, I recommend that they read up on the process online. But there are a LOT of people who don't end up talking to someone like me before getting in bed with a parasitic vanity house.

I really love you guys--I really do--but sometimes I'm sad because the only people I'm writing for are the ones smart enough to do research in the first place, which means not the people who need the most help. Le sigh. <3

I love this rundown--very clear and balanced. Thanks!

I do think you've left out a big chunk of the small press markets out there, though. Night Shade Books is an indie, but it's hardly tiny. The real tiny publishers are the epublishers (although some are getting pretty big--I suspect Samhain probably outsells Night Shade Books, for instance) and the micro-publishers who are run by one or two people. They range from clueless to professional and almost none of them require agents (Night Shade Books does), which means it's up to authors to research where they send their work and then know what to look for in a contract.

Fortunately, there are lots of excellent resources out there for authors looking at epresses and micropresses: Preditors & Editors, Absolute Write's Bewares & Background Checks forum, Writer Beware, etc.

I read somewhere recently about someone who published with a house where the author and publisher collaborated--shared the costs of publishing the book. Have you heard of this? How common is it and is it an effective option?

Thanks for taking the time to break it down!

Moonrat,

You're consistently one of my favourite bloggers, and this post is just another example of why that is :)

Thanks for the info!

人生中最好的禮物就是屬於自己的一部份..................................................

If you go self-pub. route and use a pen name, how will that affect future chances with the "Big Boys?"

Great post!

I especially like your future knowledge of who will win the Hugo!

:D

T.

(I did vote for the Windup Girl, mind you. It is awesome.)

人生有些波折，才能有些成長，所以不論順逆，凡是成長、成功的助緣，都應該心存感激。.................................................

Is editorial input a pro for big house publishers and small presses, and a con for self-publishing, or am I deluding myself into thinking that I would get good editorial input from publishers anymore?

Because, honestly, the catch-22 of not being sure of the quality of editing I'd get from someone I'm paying for the job (being told what they think I want to hear rather than what I need to hear) is what's keeping me from self-publishing. Critiquing from my peers only goes so far, and I don't want to make a fool of myself.

Terrific post! Very useful. Thank you

No mention of ebooks? As far as I can see, you write only about Dead Tree Books.
The ebook is another alternative now open to self-publishers.
The market is exploding exponentially, and independent authors stand to benefit. Large publishers have the same advantages as in print publication, except that large retailers now sell self-published authors along with books from publishers big and small.
Without the overheads a self-publisher can be very competitive in pricing and still make substantially more per copy sold than they would if their work were conventionally published.
Some establisshed authors are now taking this route, as well as unknowns.

Thanks for an incredibly insightful, generous, thoughtful post, which I imagine will be revealing for published authors, would-be published authors and people working in publishing, too. In my experience (working first for a big multinational, then for a small but successful indie), this is relevant to the Australian industry, too.

I would just add, echoing some other comments, that "small" and/or "indie" is a pretty broad category, and there's a significant difference between publishing with a "small" but well-known, well-respected house (ie a company with few staff, tiny budgets, but a big reputation and high chances of mainstream review and distribution, often through the distribution arm of a bigger company) and a "small", unknown, (to the media and book trade), undistributed house. The latter may be just as competent and worthy, but they haven't yet proven themselves and, to be frank, your book may be received not much more enthusiastically than if it were self-published. Just a pessimistic addition/nuance.

Anyway, an extremely useful post. Thank you, Moonrat!!

I'd like to add my enthusiastic "yes, please!" to those looking for some information on what Mid-List means to a writer.

A wonderful post. I'll be bookmarking this to come back to later.

- Liz

I was blogging anxiety dreams this week, too! Must be something in the air during these hot summer nights.

I love the bit about the essays-for-earrings exchange. That's grand. :)

Whoa, those are serious bridesmaid anxiety dreams, Moonrat!!! Good luck finding the perfect studs. When I got married, I gave my bridesmaids pearl studs and a pearl drop necklace so they'd all be matchie-matchie! And one of them sent me pics of her with studs and necklace at a mystery con to prove she did wear them again! Loved that!

BTW, I think combat boots would be a very interesting shoe option for a bridesmaid! I'm surprised my sister didn't think of that for my Big Day! (Although hers probably would've had chunky platform heels.)

Why do you women torture your best friends when you get married? Matching earrings and eyeliner?

Those are some detailed dreams. My dreams are a lot less plotful. I build stuff, like roller coaster tracks out of couch cushions, or I'm wandering around with my kids, back in high school, trying to explain to my returned-to-teenage husband that these are our children and maybe he'd like to go out some time? We didn't even know each other then. Point it, not much going on plotwise.

It makes more sense reading this how some people get their book ideas from dreams.

I had my bridesmaids wear matching earrings when I got married, but I bought them and gave them as gifts.

Since I've sworn off marriage, I thankfully will never have to go through the horrors of torturing my friends into wearing some hideous frock with matching this and thats. ;)

Lisa ~ YA Literature Lover

Last night, I had a dream about carrying an apparently-happy puppy around inside a bottle of water (it could poke its nose out to breathe.)

And there were spiders involved. And vacuuming. And a monkey and its baby were living above my ceiling tiles.

At least your dreams make sense, is what I'm saying.

Anxiety dreams - quick and dirty analysis: You're feeling anxious.

Also, the candles - the bride is asking the impossible. Or the bride's mother. Either way, people are putting way too much pressure on you to perform. Do you feel responsible for the Bride's happiness?

Only the bride is responsible for her happiness - and you are responsible for yours. You will not ruin her day.

Keep breathing. Meditate if you can. Medicate if you have to :-D

((((hugs))))) and buy those 'trick' candles that don't blow out.

David--I've been asking myself that question for a hot minute over here...

Oh wow. That's crazy, but I would not hesitate to wear combat boots. At least they'd be comfortable and I wouldn't tower over the other bridesmaids like I would in heels. :)

I haven't had an anxiety dream it quite some time. Ahh, blessed summer.

and i thought i had weird dreams!

link'd!

Oh, this is hilarious! The exact reason I watch Bridezillas, even after I got married. Poor bridesmaid E.A. Why do people care if they match?

缺少智慧，就是缺少一切..................................................

I've read the 19th Wife for a book club. I liked it, though like you I agree maybe it could have lost a chapter or two. At times I felt more invested with the story of Ann Eliza than Jordan.

My biggest gripe was the accounts from Ann Eliza's son as he sort of destroyed Ann Eliza's image and basically the way the author was trying to set her up. I dunno, maybe it was intentional, but even after reading the author's note I still decided that I could have done without reading Ann Eliza's sons take on the matter.

ooh the one about the lonely polygamist had sounded fascinating when i read a summary somewhere

Hi there!

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Happy writing!

I've never read a book on polygamy. Read a few sociological texts with stuff about it in them.

Hey Moonrat,

Just added these to my holds list at the library. I loved, and was riveted by, Jon Krakauer's Under the Banner of Heaven. It turned me on to really looking more closely into the Mormon faith and, in turn, at other world religions.

Under the Banner of Heaven illustrates the most radical interpretations of the faith and, in the case of that book, the faith became a scapegoat for murder (ah, religion...).

It's a fascinating religious subculture. I'm looking forward to trying these titles on for size...

時時關心，時時感動。..................................................

I've never been a fan of reading present-tense books. This is the biggest reason why I couldn't finish the Hunger Games. Ugh.

IMHO, present tense: Just Say No.

It could be worse. It could be in second person.
GAAAAH. I hate, hate, HATE present tense. Nothing makes me put a book down faster.

I recently read a YA novel in present tense. It was jarring at first but as I became used to it I really liked it.

I had been meaning to read The Hunger Games, but now that Anon at 10:32 tells me it's in the present tense, I won't bother.

Great advice! I used to hate present tense, but a few people use it really masterfully (to disagree with Anonymous: I LOVED Collins' writing in The Hunger Games, because I felt totally in the moment with Katniss). I still lean towards 3rd person past tense narration, both as a reader and a writer, but I no longer categorically refuse to read/write 1st person or present tense. If done well, it can be fantastic. And your comments a great guide for writers who are considering whether or not they can do it well.

Thank you, thank you, thank you! This so needed to be said. Occasionally - maybe once in a lifetime, in the hands of genius - a present tense novel will work, but they are mostly tedious and unbearable...

Well...I'm trying it.. It is hard I must say. But I'm sticking with it :)

I've used the present tense where the narrator dies at the end of the story because how else could they tell it? (Bit of a mind bender).

Hey, if its good writting, I don't care about the tense.
As a writter, I don't think I'd ever bother with it, but as a reader, present tense can make for fantastic endings.

Don't discount Hunger Games just because it is in the present tense!! It is a really good series, and I don't think it would have the same effect in the past tense. I agree with the issues surrounding present tense though.

I just have a hard time with the presence of mind it takes to tell a story so immediately.

Isn't that one of the first rules of writing we learn? If the language inhibits your reader, you can't tell your story, no matter how good it is.

I realize it's a stylistic choice, and it can go over well in some cases, but as a reader, the structure and tense are distracting and unnatural.

I don't narrate my life as it happens to myself - or anyone else - so listening to/reading someone else do it is incredibly jarring.

I've just finished Jane Fallon's Foursome. As first person fiction that appeals to the recreational female reader (OK - I'm not going to say chicklit) it is written in a breathless present tense and is none the worse for it - the light subject matter suits it well.

My theory is that we are getting so used to reading present tense in blogs and social networking that it is becoming the default writing mode, but it is not necessarily best for a novel reader. My blog (hidden for now) is developing in present tense, but my writing is firmly past tense. So far...

I have to second, no third, the anons above about The Hunger Games. I avoid reading present tense when possible. There's something 'off' about most books I've read in present tense.

A million years ago, when I wrote my college thesis, it was on Jane Eyre and how there are 6 moments of present tense in the otherwise past tense novel. If done right, switching tenses can be a effective vehicle for highlighting important or dramatic moments in a novel. They certainly jumped out at me, and proved to be an interesting topic for further discussion. But I would also argue that Charlotte Bronte was a masterful writer and was able to pull it off. I agree that past tense is generally more appealing to read.

I hate present tense. However, Hunger Games was amazing!

This is a great point. There has to be a reason to write in present tense. When the narrator is telling the story presently, they don't yet know what's relevant and what isn't, so they should really say a lot more than they would if they were narrating using past tense. That's why I prefer past tense (for now) - more creative control over the story. But with the right story, and when done well (as you said), I think present tense can be refreshing once you get used to it.

I'm sad to hear present tense take such a beating. I like it. I think it can dial up and radiate life, when done well. Hunger Games is a great example.
Knowing that audiences prefer past tense, I suppose I'll give that a whirl in the future, but for the current WIP, the tense was given to me along with the story. It wasn't something I chose so much as something that felt right. Here's to hopin' that the audience feels it's as right as I do!

I must prefer to read books in the past tense, and to write them that way too! I'm curious, though - do you think that past and present can be used as a specific alternating device, the way a book may alternate chapters first person by two different people? Like for instance, if the first chapter was in present tense, because it IS telling exactly what is happening, then the next is past tense, because it's telling past events leading up to the present, then the next is present tense, and so forth? Just curious. I could see that working with the right writer and story.

This is a timely post for me. I, too, prefer past tense in both reading and writing. That said, I am working with a flashback scene. It seemed appropriate to write it in present tense, but when I read it back it doesn't feel right.

This discussion helped clarify why, thanks!

~that rebel, Olivia

Off the top of my head, Jeri Smith-Ready writes her WVMP novels in present, and it doesn't jar or bother me, I like it because of the whole life/death/undeath thing with the vampires being stuck in time. Also I seem to recall Lauren Oliver's Before I Fall being in present, which made total sense since she was re-living the same day over and over.

Otherwise, no. And that last point. NEVER SKIP AROUND (unless you're a master like Bronte) - it is so jarring, because the reader notices, and when the reader notices, she's thrown out of the story. *sad face*

I actually started a novel in present tense and put it away. It creates quite a compelling narrative drive but it is extremely hard, I found, to find the time or quiet moments to develop the characters. I may go back to it eventually but not right now.

As a writer, I think that it can be used without going into excruciating moment-to-moment detail, if done well. Using "flashbacks" or backstory can add some narrative variety. In work with convoluted timelines, present tense can help distinguish present action from past action nicely, I'm thinking Chuck Palahniuk mainly, here. Fight Club is an excellent example of first-person, present tense used in this way.
Maybe it just lends itself well to minimalism.
I've got a throwaway story on my blog written in 1st person present tense, and I think it works rather well, for a throwaway. I use the techniques mentioned above, dropping in backstory, and skipping ahead where it might bog down. http://www.taojoannes.com/2010/07/how-not-to-get-to-bad-durkheim.html

De-lurking to add my voice to the pro-present tense supporters! :)

And to say I'm glad I read this post. It's given me a lot to think on. I was thinking of switching tenses in my current WIP - some chapters are written in the past and I was wondering if re-writiing them into past tense wouldn't make the time gap clearer. Hmmmm. To change or not to change?
Judy

I read a lot of YA, and it seems like past tense is becoming rare. In fact, sometimes it jars me to read a story in past tense. I've written in both past and present tense, and present seems more natural to me. Then again, I'm writing thrillerish stuff.

I disagree that historical novels tend not to work in present tense. The two best historical novels I've read in the past year are Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel and The Sealed Envelope by Emma Donoghue. Both are in present tense. There are lots of others.

A lot of YA is present tense but like you said its both contemporary and edgy. Courtney Summers books would be a perfect example of that. The present tense almost has a specific voice to it and if it doesn't groove with your characters or writing stlye then it would be a total flop.

@Amanda Glad to find a dissenting sister! Yes, yes... present tense is hard to do well, but I find past even more difficult; writers get lazy, wander into passive voice, describe the scenery ad nauseum, then do a lot head-hopping. Ugh. Painful.

Books with multiple POVs presented in multiple ways -- 3rd, 1st, even 2nd -- and tenses are written, and written well. See Julia Glass' THE THREE JUNES and Anita Shreve's TESTIMONY for examples.

It all boils down to subjective tastes, but when an editor expresses her preferences, beware what you send her ;^)

Provocative post. Thanks for putting it out. Peace...

You are saying this very well! I am keeping this.

This reminds me of a blog post I made in 2006 in reaction to Stewart O'Nan's short novel "A Prayer for the Dying." It was written in the present tense, but also in the second person singular, so it was jarring upon jarring. When you consider its historical setting, there was a third level of jarring.

Imagine reading a novel in which, on every line, you are told what you are thinking and what you are doing and that you are an undertaker in the 1870s. It's one thing to create such a character and to render him such that the reader can empathize (that's what any writer wants) but with it being second person singular, present tense, it was just awkward and pushy. I so wanted to like the novel (everything else about it was great) but I just couldn't wrap my head around that perspective.

The whole song and dance is here, on the Blork blog.

I've written a novel in present tense, my first novel China Mountain Zhang, and several stories in present tense. I'm not sure I find it works the way you describe, at least for me. I do agree that there is an immediacy in present tense that is very different from past tense. But I don't feel even remotely that in present tense I have to include every tiny detail. In fact, i think of present tense as a minimalist tense.

Perhaps a better way of expressing that is to say that I agree with your sense that it feels, not modernist but fairly contemporary (although again, I would say minimalist--80's kind of fiction) and that it requires a kind of almost impressionist touch with detail. The details have to feel textured. They have to evoke a great deal.

I do think that it's very possible to slow down in present tense, it just has to be in the moment for the character.

I've used present tense, as well as past/present switches, but I believe I've handled both situations correctly. That said, I'm (essentially) unpublished, so what you say may be true of more editors/editorial assistants than I care to admit.

My point is simply that I don't think it's unworkable. Present tense is a very powerful tool that can produce a very strong response in a reader, when strong response is what the story demands. However, it's also like playing with nuclear isotopes; prolonged exposure is potentially fatal, and there are so many ways to go wrong that it's probably better left to somebody who really knows what they're doing... or who has nothing left to lose.

I do agree that most fiction writing done in present tense is fairly unpleasant to read, however. I feel for you if you're having to read a fair bit of it right now. Present tense should not be undertaken lightly, and definitely should not be abused. I'd probably crack if I had your job. Hope it gets better soon.

Lee.

I actually don't mind reading either, because most of the time I don't even notice it. When I do notice, it's in past tense and I'm annoyed. I prefer present only because I can be right there w/ the MC.
I write my books in present and can't imagine doing it any other way. It's how it comes to me, I guess. No complaints and only good job's from editors, so I guess I'll stick with it!
(Hunger Games = brilliant)

I've heard other editors say that when the present tense is well-executed you barely even notice. I have to agree with that.

It really suits some kinds of stories, particularly fast-paced thriller or adventure stories. In first person, if the narrator is telling the story after the fact (in past tense) a lot of the danger and intensity disappears.

No lazy writing aloud in present tense. You simply cannot write the boring bits. :)

Oooo... I like what the other Maureen said about it being the minimalist tense. I agree with that.

As soon as the narrator starts to describe too much, or even think too much, in the middle of action or dialogue, it stops working.

On the other hand, I do think you can pull off the quieter moments by using internal thoughts, interspersed with the sparest details of what the narrator is doing while they're thinking.

Yet another example of why I *heart* moonrat. Lovely insights with depth and breadth...all to get help us look at our writing choices and their effects more carefully. :)

I probably wrote the first 35,000 words of my novel in present tense before realizing the very same problems you illustrated above.

Great post, moonrat!

Honestly, when I first came across present tense, it was jarring, but now that I've read a few novels (Jellicoe Road, Saving Francesca, The Forest of Hands and Teeth, The Hunger Games) in present tense, I absolutely love it. The language just seems to flow better, at least in my opinion. It certainly takes getting used to, but once you are used to it, I think it works just as well as past tense.

I write YA (edgy contemporary), and I write in present tense. No, you can't write the boring bits, but you don't write a whole lot of slower bits in YA because the readers expect a quicker pace anyway. I prefer how it sets a reader smack in the middle of the action. For YA, it's a good stylistic choice (in my opinion). It just depends on on the action at hand.

I do think the YA genre makes room for a different kind of present tense—one in which the past, rendered in past tense, can flow, easily, lyrically, powerfully. But it is hard to do, absolutely. As a teacher I often ask my students to take a moment in remembered time and write it first in present tense, and then in past. It's an easy exercise that teaches much about voice.

There are different kinds of present tense. There's Brent Musberger present tense: "I'm looking live at the Rose Bowl. I turn my head and see my color commentary, Steve what's-his-name." Then there is present tense that is like past tense, except the narrator doesn't know what's coming next. That's easier to write, and easier to read.

I do agree that present tense is difficult to do well. I DON'T agree that a writer cannot skip forward. I believe the same rule applies in present or past -- write the part of the scene that is compelling and then be done. If your next chapter begins twelve hours, twelve days or twelve years later, SO WHAT? We do not need to live every moment with ANY character, regardless of the POV or tense

I like reading fiction written in present tense. The narrative voice does not carry the weight of knowing how things are going to turn out, of knowing what will follow from the action that is being described. Present tense feels lighter to me. The reader can feel anxious in the middle of such a story, but can also feel some ease and lightness. We all live in present tense, after all, and part of the promise of daily life is not knowing what tomorrow is going to bring. I think that's a great thing for fiction to make use of, not always, but sometimes.

What a fantastic dialogue. I was at first disheartened by this post because the novel I have out on sub right now is written in present tense, but I'm feeling much better after reading the comments. Like other proponents of present tense, as a reader I don't notice anymore. Sucked in is sucked in, no matter what stylistic choices the author has made. I feel a little queasy at the thought of someone passing me by for this reason alone, however (reader or editor). It does give me pause about my current WIP, which is also told in present tense. Thanks for the very thought-provoking post!

I'm addicted to present tense, both reading and writing it. The first time I read a present tense novel (Hunger Games) it was a little jarring at first but once I got used to it I didn't look back.

I really enjoyed Hunger Games as well, and am keen to read the rest. It worked really well.

In good hands, it works. But then, in good hands, anything can work.

As one of the previous-posting Anons who dislikes reading in the present tense, let me assure you, it's nothing personal.

I'm sure Suzanne Collins is a fine writer. And I'm positive those of you who have written first-person works have done your best to make it readable.

It's just not something I enjoy. The implication thus far seems to be "If you can't read present tense, you're just not INTO it enough."

Maybe so. And I'm open minded enough to give a good book a shot. But it's not like I have a personal crusade against the tense.

I just agree that it's difficult to pull off well, and more often than not, a story - YA or Adult or any age - could be just as well served with past tense.

I wonder whether you think the same thing about third omniscient present? It seems the biggest problem with present first person is that it's too oppressive.

When I began my novel, I tried it different ways, but the third omniscient present was what came. So far not a single person who has read the novel has even said a word about it, so maybe it does work. They've had other problems with parts of the novel, but not that.

I think we have to write what voice tells our story and not worry so much about it. I guess my feeling is if that's all that gets between me and a book deal, then maybe it just wasn't meant for me to have that book deal. It saddens me, though, because I think of what great stories might be lost just because of prejudice towards a particular tense.

I thought I will be the first commenter in this post. I was wrong. I am so surprised that there are too many people who already comment in this post. This only proves that this is an amazing post.

I read this yesterday and wondered what books I've read that are present tense. Last night, I started reading a new book "Almost Home" by Pam Jenoff and OMG, it's present tense! It's keeping me on the edge, but I feel like I'm reading the prologue or something and it's going to change.

It's been very interesting--and a little frustrating--to watch this comment stream unwind. Thank you to those who read my post the way I'd hoped--I was trying to say that present tense is EXTRAORDINARILY DIFFICULT TO EXECUTE, not that it was INHERENTLY WRONG or that I disliked it.

I'm just beginning a new WIP that I want to be edgier/more modern than my last, and your post helped me to decide to drop the first person present tense attempt. Your points about suspense and tension are spot on, and that's not what THIS story is about.

However, you did also send my thoughts racing back to an old WIP (a sci-fi psychological thriller) that could benefit from an increase in tension!

In short, you opened my eyes to the uses and abuses of present tense. Thank you so much!

I'm halfway through Hilary Mantel's 'Wolf Hall' and am enjoying the story a great deal but the present tense is so jarring! You hit the nail on the head with 'stressing' the reader out Moonie, every time I pick it up I feel I am fighting with the words just to extract the characters and plot. I really want to finish it but ARGH!

Soph--that's where I'm at with Lisa See's SHANGHAI GIRLS right now (the inspiration of this post, actually). I love Lisa See. And it's frickin' driving me crazy to read!

Oh dear me.

Are you all friends now?

Three posts in eight minutes... copied'n'pasted, one hopes!

I'm dying to know if they're still married!!

Wow, quite the experience. I too, would love to know if they're still married and she's still a part of the family.

I'm guessing she didn't even try to pull the "you'll be able to wear this dress again, I'm sure" schtick on you, did she?

At least they were in heaven. I guess, in the end, that’s all that matters.

*blink*

You killed them?!?

Fairyhedgehog, Yes, we're friends. Not best friends, but friends. They -- and their five children -- live a block away so we see them regularly.

Jen A and Lisa, Yes, they're still married.

Susan, No, she didn't get the chance because I pretty much avoided all conversation on the wedding day. And I *think* the wedding day (or at least the events leading up to the wedding day) was only the second time I met her, so there wasn't a big buildup of, "How do you like the dress?" or anything like that. She was way to gushy and delirious with love to notice me and my attitude anyway. :)

Thanks for the comments!

Amy

Joe, HA HA HA HA HA HA!!

This is why I need an editor!! LOL!

Amy

Moonrat - a guess post? What are we supposed to guess? If Amy is still speaking to these people? If they are still wed? If she meant "in heaven" metaphorically or literally? :-)

PS If this doesn't make sense, look at your heading.

ok. probably just me, but i thought the reason you were so angry at the beginning was because *he* was your brother in law- i.e., married to your sister. I was trying to work out exactly how much gall the little homewrecker would have to have to ask you to be bride'smaid and why you didn't clock her.

LOL. Life can be stranger than fiction.

OMGoodness....AMY! I loved it!

I guess I can stop complaining now. I have nothing on this one. Just wish the weather in NY would cooperate and cool down for one day, one wedding, oh yeah - that's tomorrow. Nope not mine. (Hugs)Indigo

I hope you were well acquainted with the groomsman! :D

Love it.

Did the bride know? For my wedding, there was a hurricane coming (we had an outdoor ceremony), a work commitment I could not get out of (a judge would not give me an adjournment...I'm an attorney), my mother in CIU and a bridemaid's dress went missing. No one told me about the dress until afterward. They were afraid I'd crack under the pressure. Everything worked out for me, except the hurrican hitting the nigth before. At least the sky was beautiful for the pixs!
PLJ

I can't believe the dress maker chewed you guys out for not trusting her. Duh!! The dresses were in pieces, for pity's sake!

Amy

This is a wonderful story. Better than fiction, as they say!

Yes the bride knew. She came with us for all the fittings. She had a great attitude though. Nothing fazed her. (It probably helped that this was her third wedding and she was four months pregnant).

A hurricane! Now that's pressure.

The dressmaker's attitude was unbelievable. It's the funniest part of the story IMO. She followed us to the reception, to which she had not been invited, to bug my sister about money.

At least all the stress over dresses was a great way to make nerves about walking down the aisle and being stared at by dozens of people into nothing much.

Lovely shades of the "Tailor of Gloucester"!

I love the part about the dress maker not doing much sewing. Surely if she was making the dresses she would be able to make money and then pay the rent right?

I've met lots of useless dress makers. I've found that only a few will have all the dresses ready way before the actual wedding. The rest think it's ok to finish the day before. And when the dress doesn't fit, somehow it's your fault because you're too fat. :(

Miss Anon said...
Surely if she was making the dresses she would be able to make money and then pay the rent right?..

Yeah, you'd think. It was obvious, after the fact of course, that she was leaving the shop right after we did every time, since no progress was ever made between fittings.

知識可以傳授，智慧卻不行。每個人必須成為他自己。. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Years ago, when we were still happily married, my wife was matron-of-honor for the second and final time.

Dear friends of mine were finally marrying, and my wife, not knowing the groom's family very well, agreed to be matron-of-honor... despite my strong recommendation that the Black Spot should pass to some other poor lass, since the job required close coordination with the groom's mother.

Picure a wedding planned and directed by a sort of preppy Atilla the Hun, and you have the idea of my wife's travails. Better still, picture a grandmotherly figure in a yellow dress, white gloves, and a highball in hand directing parking at the event with non-Volkswagen German marques to the front, Japanese luxury upstarts to the rear, and domestics (like our shiny new Chevrolet Malibu) out on the street.

A large (like 4 feet wide) framed photo of the groom's family's Learjet, which was standing by the whisk the happy couple to their Caribbean honeymoon, was prominently displayed in the lobby of the facility.

This is just a tidbit of the ordeal my wife endured under the whip of the groom's mother. Since my wife was pregnant at the time, her dress had to be adjusted several times. Each time the groom's mother accompanied her to the dressmaker and dropped sweet little gems like "We may have to send to Italy for a larger size" or "I never new silk could stretch so far".

By Wedding Day my wife was a woman of wrath and was determined to have a showdown after the ceremony.

Suffering a bout of morning sickness, we arrived late and had to walk six blocks. My wife rushed upstairs to get ready. The dress needed a last minute adjustment (again!). Atilla must have made another comment, because I could hear my wife unload her umbrage all the way downstairs at the bar in the lobby.

But Atilla had the last word.

The facility was such that the bidesmaids and bride would come down a sweeping staircase to the altar. Atilla was Emcee and would announce each maid by name and lineage.

The first five received pleasant introductions to the spectators... while my pregnant wife was announced as "and here comes the chunky one."

Fortunately, my wife was not armed.

This too shall pass.

Wow. Being a groomsman is so much easier:)

Haha, I'm loving these wedding stories! I told my BFF I would be her bridesmaid if she ever gets married... but now I'm a little scared.

Brilliant and horrifying.

This is great. Should be published beyond blog. Nice job!

Totally awesome delivery!

I. Could. Pee!

That's MINE!

And, incidentally, all true. Every single detail occurred just as I wrote it. And I left out the whole rehearsal dinner.

The rehearsal dinner...I still have flashbacks of landing face-down in the cake when the bride developed late afternoon/early evening sickness and shoved me out of her way. Good times.

Thanks for posting it!

--Andrea

I loved how you worded this-"Scarlett O’Hara-esque gown." I also love this blog

I was sort of hoping it wasn't all true. Brrrrr....

世間唯一永恆的，就是改變..................................................

"the way short, ugly men always seem to act"?

Good grief.

That was a big surprise.

Yes, very funny, though I wasn't aware that only tall handsome men had decent characters.

Yeah, I read where ugliness is an external thing. Sheesh. Irony understand not?

I was a bridesmaid once and had the best time. The bride is a wonderful friend and we cracked jokes all day. But sheesh, it was a loooooooong day! I didn't think my wedding lasted so long (she was 'best girl' at my wedding too).

I've been a bridesmaid too many times to count. The last time was at my mother's wedding. Yes, you read that right. My *mother's* wedding. My two sisters and I were the bridesmaids, and it was in March, aka the worst month for outdoor pictures. No flowers yet, the trees were still bare and, more importantly, the ground was mud.

But there was this lovely lake behind the party center that my mom and stepdad wanted to take the pictures by. Which was fine. But it was at the bottom of a hill.

Upon seeing my hesitation to walk down this muddy hill in my heels and long black dress (long black dresses, mom? it's not a funeral), he decided to carry me down the hill.

Wrong move. He took one misstep and we both went tumbling down into the mud. *sigh* We were able to clean up enough to do pictures but I still had subtle stains on my dress the rest of the night and dancing wasn't so fun with a swollen ankle.

Oops. When I said "he" I meant my husband, not just some random guy. :)

Lydia, thank goodness you clarified. I thought you meant your stepfather and I thought, "That's...weird. Nice. But weird." Husband is much better.

I'm so, so, very sorry. I had only one wedding experience while pregnant and it was not fun.

My six month pregnant why would you do this to me horror story was a wine tasting trip to Argentina. Airplanes, multiple vineyards, and high altitude do not make for happy pregnant chicks.

The only time I've ever been a bridesmaid was at my mother and stepdad's wedding--and that was so unconventional that I don't think it even counts. My family is a very laid-back family, and the wedding was on Halloween and we were all wearing costumes. Not a lot of pressure to be perfect. None, actually. I prefer it that way. :D

Of two evils choose the least.............................................................

Marissa--if you hadn't mentioned the pleating, I'd have thought from looking at the picture that your dress just had a crinoline in the back, ballet-style. Not such a bad thing. :-)

I have been a bridesmaid about four times and I've got the fifth one coming up in about six weeks. I don't think it will have a bar--maybe beer and wine with dinner, but it's going to be a "country wedding" in a barn...which should be gorgeous.

Oh, you poor girl. As an adult I've only been a brides maid (maid of honor no less) once--the bride was in recovery so it was an alcohol free event. Fortunately, I had better allies--her brother snuck in a bottle and we all spiked our lattes, so I found my relief... sounds unsupportive, I know, but after the marathon... and I wasn't alone.

You poor impoverish man. One day you can get married and subject said friend to similar punishment - I'd suggest incorporating a top hat, mink gloves and those red robes with ermine tails that king's wear to special occasions in your groomsmens' outfits.

Particularly in the post college era, but in any wedding where you are a member of the wedding party and as such are required to shell out bucks for clothes you did not choose and wouldn't wear on a bet, I think you should get a free pass on a wedding present.

Bwahaha! Awesome!

-o-

My capcha word is a palindrome! This must bode well!

Wag, wag!

I love that! :)

if anyone expects me to pay money for a dress to be in a wedding, they should know that I have no more money for a gift! I didn't make anyone wear anything special at my wedding. Just whatever nice they had!

Ah. AH. Ahahahahahahahahahahaha

Sorry. I'm sure it wasn't funny at the time. But

Ahahahahahahahahahahaha

word ver: trolless (really!)

Wow....is it really a rule? The dress to two weddings thing...I was thinking about doing it since neither of the brides know each other. Guess I'll be packing a spare dress now.

I am so lucky to never have been required to be in a wedding. But I'll be going to one at the end of the month. I pray my naiveté, innocence & luck hold out and nothing goes down.

OMG too funny!

Ohhhhh, that is priceless. You could charge $ .99 per download for that story.

And, seriously. I am a dyed in the wool, Emily Post owning (and using) Southern Belle debutante. If you have friends who get offended if the bridesmaid dress they have foisted on you enjoys usage BEFORE the coronation of the third finger, then you need new friends.

Reading your post makes me very happy that men don't have to put up with such nonsense. Why do you women put up with it?

Moon Rat - Thanks for sharing the story! I'm glad it can at least provide some humor now that the steam has finally stopped gushing from my ears as I try not to explode.

SM Schmidt - I had no idea it was a rule, and really, if I wasn't verging into full-on-family-dispute-catastrophe-territory, I would have worn the dress twice anyway. Who cares? It was expensive!

Laurel - I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought it was INSANE because let me tell you, mother of the bride, groom, etc. - all were against me in this.

Oh, that's horribly hilarious. I'm so sorry, Kerry! The sheet thing was just the proverbial icing on the cake. But as I always say, it's worth it if you can get a good story out of it! :)

Amy

This is why I never buy dresses. :)

Ow ow ow ow ow.

You went to all that trouble? Didn't you check the secondhand stores in the area first? (Yes, I know that's semi-verboten.)

Oh man! If I had been the bride, I would have been totally overjoyed that you were able to get used out of that dress at all aside from my wedding, whether it was before the day or after. So I guess I have no class either.

Oh, Kerry! I don't want to get all muddled up in a family dispute of any sort, but the absolute first and cardinal rule of etiquette is:

The purpose of good manners is to make those around you comfortable.

Bridesmaid's dresses just trounce all over this, in every way possible. Every bride (myself included) makes her selection with the justification that "Oh! It's so lovely! They can absolutely wear it again!"

If the "again" came before my actual wedding, I would have been thrilled for the poor girl I asked to ante up for the dress. Along with the gift she was then expected/obligated to provide.

You're a good sport. I'd ask you to be in my wedding, but a) I'm already married and b) that seems cruelly unjust.

Wedding traditions are fun, but not law. And when they cross the line into stupid, it should be acceptable to break them.

From my understanding, it's alright to wear bridesmaid dresses after the wedding.
Wearing it before though means it's not "brand new" and in the materialistic mind makes it of less value.

I hope you're a writer becasue that needs to go in a book!

ZOMG but I loved this. Like stupid, waking up my husband to read excerpts as he moans something or other about morning obligations. Frakking hilarious. Plus I love JCrew and don't believe a WORD of it.

@ Steeleweed

Some of us don't. But since Bridezilla usually knows better than to ask us, we don't tend to have these sorts of stories to share. :-)

Kerry, you're a more patient woman than I am. If that bride doesn't appreciate you by now, she needs her head examined.

As someone who is getting married in 4ish weeks, I can only goggle at "YOU MAY NOT WEAR IT BEFORE THE WEDDING."

On the other hand, my approach to bridesmaid dresses was to have a minor meltdown, scour the world for fabric that matched the wedding invites (yes, I'm THAT fussy), take fabric and sketch of dresses and bridesmaids to dress maker and scream "HAH! ATTACK! I DON'T WANT TO KNOW ANYTHING MORE UNTIL THEY ARE READY." (It would have been really cruel of me to get them to all wear untailored dresses in the same style -- they have widely varying body shapes).

At least they seem to have come out okay. *hopes*

No, I'm totally with the bride on 'cannot wear before wedding', not because of materialistic concerns, but it somehow makes it less special. Also, I did buy my bridesmaids their dresses so I think I was allowed to put my foot down!
BUT at least it was a nice dress you wanted to wear again, there are some horrors out there!
Looks gorgeous in the photo :)

Have you sold the movie rights to this story? Kathryn Heigl is on line two...

Wow, that *was* a cursed dress. I didn't know about that rule either...good to know...Sounds like a silly rule, though. :-P

Kerry, that dress *was* cursed! Egads! (Though it did produce a hilarious story!). My bridesmaids ordered their dresses from J. Crew (brown cocktail dresses). I love that J. Crew actually makes bridesmaids dresses that can be worn to other events. Six months after my wedding, hubby and I went to his brother's wedding, and one of their cousins was wearing...yes, the brown cocktail dress from J. Crew that my bridesmaids had worn! I told her, "You could've been in my wedding!" Okay, you had to be there, but it was pretty funny.

Love the wedding tales, Moonrat!

Cheers,
Susan

ROFL Awesome. Awesome. Awesome.

That is a hilarious story and I'm glad you survived it. I hope the dry cleaner paid you something for ruining the dress.

One thing though - you might want to blur out the bride and groom's names and faces on the attached photo.

Oh wow, that made me smile! Poor you, poor dress.

Welcome back! I can't wait to hear some of those wedding horror stories.

My sister's wedding was a Muslim wedding in Palestine, but she didn't have to pretend to be sad because her family was in the US and wouldn't be offended if she acted happy. It was actually an all-around mashed experience as they wanted to do it half Western half Middle Eastern, so they mixed Western songs with Arabic lyrics, most unusually had the guys and girls all in the same room, and many other touches to make it a very unique wedding. I had a great time there.

Welcome home. Nothing like butchering meat to bring a family closer. I'm happy you're happy. You've got good stories.

Siiiiigh, I miss weddings. We went through a rash of them about a year ago (8 in one year, huzzah!). Now I'm waiting for the second wave of friends to get married so I can have an excuse to dress way fancier than I need to and dance around barefoot.

Glad that you had fun. It's always interesting to hear about other weddings. They're so exciting compared to all the wedding receptions I ever go to.

Looking forward to the horror stories.

I'm glad it went so well. SOunds lovely.

How did the dress work out???

Glad you had a great time. It sounds lovely.

Aw, I love happy wedding stories! But, Moonrat, how were the shoes? Did they give you blisters again? And did you catch the bouquet??? Inquiring minds want to know (okay, this inquiring mind anyway!)!

Caroline--like a DREAM. It fit PERFECTLY. Lucky, right?

Susan--the shoes are for the next wedding! And as for the bouquet, the bride forgot to toss it. They also forgot to cut the cake. There was too much dancing, apparently :)

Ah, I have gotten ahead of myself, as usual! What, no cake cutting? I hope someone cut it eventually. People had to get hungry after all that dancing. ;-)

Welcome back, and how wonderful.

I'm a bit of a sucker for weddings too. Ahhhh, how fabulous.

Wow. I do love a happy ending. So glad it worked out and was beautiful and moving and fun. Welcome back!

Hey, congrats to everyone. England! I know someone else who is in England. Say hello to the queen for me, and tell her we're ready for independence down under.

Have fun, Simon.

Congrats ladies! Enjoy England.

Oddly enough, the Queen has been in New York and probably couldn't be given these colonies back with interest. So warm under that ermine.

Great news all around -- way to go!

(Laughing at Barbara's comment, too. :))

Are you in England for one of those weddings you recently squeaked about?

Awwww, thank you! :)

Awesome news! I'm moving to Colorado, something in the water?

Government Funding / Research Scandal

Visit the website that the Canadian House of Commons and numerous Universities across North America have as well.
---------------------------------------------
It's an ingenious form of white collar crime:

PHD credentials / contacts, an expendable family, participation of a dubious core of established professionals, Unaudited Government agency funding GamblingResearch.org ), identity protected by Privacy Commissioner Office of Canada, (Jennifer Stoddart), unlimited funding (under the guise of research grants), PHD individuals linked with the patient (deter liability issues), patient diagnosed with mental illness (hospital committed events = no legal lawyer access/rights), cooperation of local University and police (resources and security); note the Director of Brock Campus Security.

This all adds up to a personal ATM; at the expense of Canadian Taxpayers!
-------------------
"convinced" to be taken to St. Catharines General hospital (2001) and conveniently diagnosed with a "mental illness" (hint: Hallucination type; "forced" to consume "prescribed"
corresponding medication for "cognitive" purposes )
-------------------
**The Psych convinces the patients fragmented family, 70 yr old mother, 10 yr old nephew and his divorced sister (who rented across the incredibly beautiful home of Marianne Edwards ( ex-Brock instructor ) and her husband (lawyer)), to move in together. They comply and obey to the "Doctor's" credentials, contacts, and financial gifts.
-------------------
"Where" and "How" have the participants been receiving their (lavish?) incomes from the past 8 years? Government Agencies like Click here: www.gamblingresearch.org (annual
grants up to 500 k ) ?
The link above takes you directly to one of their research teams. Lisa Root, ironically, met with me during the 2001 incident as a C.A.M.H. employee, who I was "encouraged" to meet.
-------------------
Google

Medicine Gone Bad

or

http://medicine-gone-bad.blogspot.com/

I didn't realize ONDINE was a book! I was eager to see the movie and am now even more excited to read it.

Oh Moonrat thank you so much!
I am having a dream run with Ondine, the reviews have been so positive I can't believe my luck.

Except for people confusing it for the movie. :-)

I'm sorry, it's not a tie-in for the Colin Farrell film. (Even though he's gorgeous) We began editing and then found out about the movie. The timing was just one of those things. Ah well.
*mwah* and have a wonderful time in England.

Silly me, forgot the best bit

Congratulations Anita and Stephanie.
Such fantastic news!!!!

England?!?!? First time I've been jealous of a (moon)rat :)

Have a fabulous time. I totally need a scone...

Thanks, Moonie! Have some tea for me.

Prize? Why the shoes, of course.

I want those slippers!

Enjoy England, the land of my birth.
Congratulations to all those with exciting book news.

Moonrat! INTERN is in England too! Let's wave at each other from our respective castles!

要保持更新呦，加油!!!期待你的新文章!!!.......................................................

Not posting a story, but since you're in the wedding spirit, check out www.EtiquetteHell.com - that site has some AMAZING stories about Bridezillas and all sorts of wedding horror to get you all set to never want to go through it ever again!

Good luck! I've only been a bridesmaid once, when I was 12, for my cousin, and I don't remember the majority of that, so I have no story to share. What I will say, though, is that you now have the best line for a bridesmaid speech ever: "And your shoes gave me gangrene. Happy Marriage!"

Is that your actual bridesmaid dress? Um. I'm sure you'll look fabulous in it! And the gangrene will complement the dress nicely. ;)
--Precie

So, um, I only have one bridesmaid story and it's not really email worthy, so I'll just leave it here. It was my cousin's wedding in 2000 and I was still in college. I couldn't get back home in time for the rehearsal due to class, so I was just coming in time for the wedding. When I got there, my cousin informed me that they forced her to choose one of us bridesmaids as a maid of honor (she hadn't wanted one), so for some inexplicable reason she chose me. Not only did I have to figure out on the spot what I was supposed to do as a bridesmaid, but I had to deal with a bunch of extra duties that she passed off to me in quick whispers right before we went through the door...

It turned out all right, though.

Just came across your blog and your style of writing really made me laugh. I also work for a publisher, but in the UK, and in marketing. So, not quite the same but there you go.

I'm getting married in the UK but have an American fiancee, so have the same size problemos but the other way around. I was most put out when buying a pattern with my American mother-in-law-to-be and she was adamant I should get a 'large' - 14-16-18 - in my reckoning that was fairly big (uk sizes are approx 2 higher, I'm a UK 10 which is about a US 6). So, feeling somewhat frumpy & sceptical I bought said pattern. As it turned out, when I got back to the UK, the sizings were identical and of old skool dimensions - ie a UK size 10 was a 24 inch waist or something. So, actually, M-I-L wasn't too far off after all!

Good luck with your dress - it'll work out fine ;)

OMG, I'm so excited to write my bridesmaid story for you! If only you wanted to hear the story of my own wedding from hell (there was a bride hurling bread at her new brother-in-law and also a tale of a dress that wouldn't zip too) , I could die happy. My husband's lucky that I love him so much or else I might have demanded a recount, I swear ;-).

I'll work on getting the tale told and emailed off to you by the deadline. Not like I don't have a manuscript that I need to finish revising or one that I just need to plain ol' finish (ooh look, something SHINY!) but this is too good to pass up.

Yay!

Oh, right, whoops, I missed the point which was to write a bridesmaid story. Well, last summer I was a bridesmaid for a friend, along with her stunning indie-chick-model-like sister and waif-like-hot-shot-businesswoman sister-in-law to be. It was, uncharacteristically, a scorcher of a day in England, and we were in fully-lined floor-length silk dresses. The three of us were melting in the old-fashioned car, until sister-in-law had the sudden inspiration to dig up some kitchen roll, which we tore up and stuck under each of our armpits like white bat wings. The driver looked bemused, as did the photographer when we pulled up next to him, hoping to get a glamorous snap of the bridesmaids, but instead finding us sniggering and looking somewhat ridiculous. In true classy style, we re-used them on the way to the venue too.

Oh, don't wear those shoes!! Or at the very least, go get inserts that you can put over the spots that rub. (Like so: http://www.drscholls.com/drscholls/conditions/shoerubbingfriction.jsp but Duane Reade has cheaper no-name versions)

as for me, I have zero wedding stories, except for those I attended as a child, and I don't think those count!

I do have a diet tip, just one: Cut out anything with high fructose corn syrup. You will lose weight so fast your pants will fall down.

If you already don't consume HFCS, I got nothing.

Mine's not worth an email either.
The bride, a young seamstress, made my dress. Very pretty. Very mini. Very.
We had to kneel on the altar steps.
To this day I wonder if I mooned the congregation.

Well, it's not really a story, so I'll post it here: My bridesmaids all got rip-roaring drunk, scarfed up sushi faster then the poor guys could make it, and chased Kiefer Sutherland all over the L.A. hotel, squealing loudly. Toward the end of the night, passing out was involved. Super classy!

I, however, am an awesome bridesmaid.

Although once, as a 5-year-old flower girl, I hiked up the back of my beautiful, lilac-colored dress in front of the congregation to scratch my ass. Several times. Guess it was itchy.

wait, WendyCinNYC- is that poor bridesmaid behavior? I am taking notes....

LOVE the dress. Is it a beach wedding? Are you tall blonde and Scandinavian? Somehow I picture it looking fantastic on someone with those dimensions.

Shell patches. Huh.

You just need to wear those shoes everyday till your feet are as good as dead. I have't felt my feet in years and I can actually go shopping in stilletos. It's like feet-binding for the modern woman.

Always a groomsman, never a bridesmaid. :)

Great post! Bookmarked for future reference. ;)

I think I would definitely have a publishist when I get to that stage. I'm bad at following up/organisation.

Great start for most authors. I think that the key is to have the mindset of 'this is a partnership between my publisher and myself.'

There are many little step by steps that authors can do to make it work. Talk to other authors, talk to your agent, talk to your publisher--see what you can do to help in its success.

My contract with my small publisher included a firm investment in marketing. I wanted BEA presence, giveaways, more galleys and a booklaunch party. We came up with a list of targeted review outlets and sent galleys. On publication a much larger mailing was done. The initial six months saw nice reviews and pretty good sales despite the rocky economy (my book is a guide to consumer electronics).

Unfortunately, my publisher retired six months after publication (I still have distribution). I have continuted to market the book myself and book sales have been steady. After the first wave, most authors even at big houses are on their own as their title is no longer frontlist. As a nonfiction author, I have changed course from the emphasis being on my book to a focus on being an expert who wrote a book. This has kept the book alive and has resulted in lots of great interviews with outlets large and small.

Thanks for a timely post and good advice. Just consumed with getting a website up and running at the moment and writing a blog post on it. The blog is fine but you're right, you need to provide clear and easy to find information about yourself and your book you can direct people to.

On "giving stuff away," what about giving away the first chapter or two of your book as a podcast?

Isaiah--sure, as long as your publisher knows. Usually there's a clause in the contract about how much text is distributable. But these days, most publishers are pretty forward-thinking about that. Just do ask first.

It makes me happy word-of-mouth is one of only two main concerns.

Word-of-mouth is generated by the enjoyability of the book's contents, and that's something I can control.

The rest of the 'magic'? Not so much, although I can try.

Oh, the irony!

Congratulations. I don't like the Other Me who manifests when I'm decaffeinated, or I'd follow your excellent example.

A giant cheeseburger and a peanut butter milkshake? How funny. I had the same thing for dinner tonight. ;)

YAY!!!

But how do you make a peanut butter milkshake?

Josin--no idea. But if you figure it out, let me know :)

So do you stay off the caffeine now, or go back?

Hey, congrats!

And peanut butter milkshake? That sounds amazing, I clearly need to try one sometime.

Congratulations! I knew you could do it!

That's huge! I astral travelled some iron over to you - the reverse vampire. I have tears, it worked!

Yay!

And to make a PB milkshake, wouldn't you just put milk, ice cream and pb into a blender and mix? Maybe mix the milk & pb before adding the ice cream?

Ooh, congratulations!

And here is a link to a recipe, but it's a peanut butter AND jelly milkshake and it's to die for! Add additional peanut butter and jelly to taste. I usually add a tsp of vanilla essence as well :)

Enjoy!

http://www.1st-milkshake-n-smoothie-recipes.com/peanutbutterjellymilkshake.html

Congrats! I'm glad to hear that you were able to donate. :)

you had me at peanut butter milkshake.

Awesome!!

Congratulations! I haven't been able to give for the past few years...my iron is too low accoring to Red Cross, but not my doctor.

I believe everyone donation helps five people! Three cheers for you EA!

Derek--I don't know! Because I've gone to the trouble of breaking the addiction now. But the thing is, I really do like a tasty cup of coffee now and then. Maybe I'll drink for fun but not survival.

Speaking as someone who is still addicted, I say hold out as long as you can (even if it's only a day)!

You know, I actually have checked back periodically to see how it went. Awesome. Glad it was worth it. :)

I am having to come away from caffiene. My body is fighting it. I admire your stamina, and can only say, I am trying.

Well done!

Try adding 1.5 heaping tablespoons of excellent quality espresso powder to 3/4 lb of decaf and mix well.

It gives the decaf a tiny kick in the tongue and only adds the approximate equivalent of one shot of espresso - about 130mg of caffeine to 3/4 lbs of coffee.

Important to know: more is not better (only bitter) and you have to mix the grounds very well before you make the coffee so the espresso powder is evenly distributed.

Why are you confirming my guesses?

Kay--tell me your guesses. Perhaps you are just very wise.

I take it you get a lot of the:

"Just read it. You'll love it."

and

"It really picks up after the first ten pages."

Kind of pitches.

I think this is a good illustration of the difference between an editorial/agent type reader and my own reading tastes.

I frequently find myself incredibly annoyed when everything explodes on page 1, etc. Now that I've been exposed to the "biz" for a while (in the sense of all these agent/editor blogs and reading up on how to break in) I can often pretty clearly see how things have been shifted up front to entice an agent/editor, following various bits of advice I see repeated all over the web, etc.

But you know... most of those books that I pick up in the book store and the first page explodes like that (usually debut novels, the same kind of pressure doesn't seem to exist for others??)... I put it back down and find something else.

I recognize that this is just The Way Things Are (TM), but the more I find out about the wizard the more I wish I hadn't messed with the curtain.

onefinemess--SO INTERESTING. It's true that acquisitions trends do NOT reflect reader trends. Mostly because there's no way to really predict reader trends. We just get lucky when they match up.

Great post. Thanks. *Note to self: pull reader in right away.* :)

seriously. yes. i mean, things don't need to EXPLODE, but they need to be interesting, and in a good way - language and voice, preferably, if not in action. SOMETHING. and please, for godssakes, have clean prose.

my eyes are bleeding.

No pressure. Nope, none at all.

This from the girl who wrote the body of all her papers first, conclusion second, and then took nearly as long to write the introductory paragraph as the entire rest of the paper.

I was all prepared to leave a comment related to the post and then I saw onefinemess and it totally weirded me out. Like bumping into someone at an unexpected place.

Anyway, yes. First page.

Um. What an awesome post. Assuming your reader is in a bad mood...brilliant.

I've often wondered about the "not my interest" thing. I mean, I wouldn't want to rep a book I didn't personally find interesting. Maybe that's why I'm not an agent or editor. Hunh.

Yep. If that first sentence, that first paragraph and that first page doesn't grab the reader...you're done.

I always read the first page when I'm selecting a book at the bookstore. Nothing needs to explode, (in fact, if it does, odds are the book won't be my thing) but something has to get me thinking "hmm, interesting. I wonder what's in the box?" or "is he going to walk out on that tightrope?" or even "geez, what's HER deal?"

Something.

onefinemess,

It's not a question of everything exploding. I think that's a very common misconception. The trend is to start mis en scene, with something happening, but the thing that is happening shouldn't necessarily be literal action, like a fight scene or a car chase.

Your goal as an author is to quickly introduce a character and a problem.

Dropping into the story in the middle of a swordfight usually isn't the best way to do this. When you have action without context, there's nothing at stake and the reader won't engage with it. Your introduction to the character gets buried in the mechanical details of the fight or the chase, and the set piece ends up being counterproductive.

A good first page could be a character sitting in an exam room at a doctor's office, waiting for a test result.

A good first page could be the protagonist telling his wife a lie.

The goal is to show the reader something about the character and to engage the reader in what is going to happen next.

What you don't want to be doing on the first page is describing a house or a town, or talking about what a character looks like.

That's good advice. Thank you. :)

My problem is that, while I'm very happy with my pages 1-30 of my draft, I hate the rest. I'm assuming the rest is important, too. Unfortunately.

Awesome post. We debut authors are bombarded with suggestions as to how to go about writing the first page. In the end, it's like everything else we write - it has to inspire us and, hopefully, it will inspire others. Overthinking anything in life, including Page One, often leads to trouble. Breathe in, breathe out, and write the best you can from Page One to The End.

Assume whoever is reading your submission is going to be in a terrible mood when they look at page 1.

Love it. But, well, there IS an alternative: somehow arrange things so that your MS is at the top of the stack on a given day. I'd love to know the secret to that.

I think we put too much weight on the first page and an exciting opening. "The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo" has the worst opening 50 pages of all time. I understand where you're coming from, Moonrat. You've got so many books stacked up, if you're not interested quickly, you're moving on to the next one. But we're literally changing literature by demanding a Hollywood opening. Some of the greatest novels of all time take a many pages to get "interesting."

So what you're saying is that we should use different-colored fonts to break the monotony of white on black, yes? This is good to know.

With my first (publishable) novel, I got rejected 25 times.

Then I rewrote the first scene.

And then I got an agent almost immediately.

So I totally see your point.

You've touched upon the whole focus of my blog, Flogging the Quill, where I (and my readers) critique the first page of a manuscript. If you're curious, it's at floggingthequill.com. I'd like to quote a little from your post here and, of course, attribute and link it. Thanks for the validation of my notions about the importance of the first page.

Keith, I agree with Dan and think this might be more in line with what moonrat is saying. The post didn't indicate that something really dramatic has to happen in the first 2 paragraphs.

It's sort of like food. The first course doesn't have to be jalapeño poppers to make you like it. A perfect soup or elegant salad has a lasting effect on a taster, and I think a first page is the same.

A strong, compelling style and interesting (even if they're soft-spoken) characters can really pull a reader into a book on the first page.

But I'm not an editorial assistant, so I can't be sure. ;)

I'm happy with mine.
I wrote the entire book around that first line.

Hi, Rachel,

Well, I respectfully disagree. Of course the first page needs to be good. Every page needs to be good. The problem is that, in emphasizing the first page (and opening scene), we are treating it as something separate from the rest of the book. Most writers have interpreted the idea of "a good first page" to mean "an exciting hook" alá every Hollywood movie. Just about every book these days opens with a guy making a phone call to CNN, telling them that he has secret information that will change the world, but a murky figure appears and shoots him before we can find out what the information is. Duh duh duh! End scene. Cut to: introduction of the main character at work in her laboratory, government office, etc. That's fine for a thriller, but unfortunately, it's not the best choice for every novel. Yet the industry's emphasis on a "hook" opening is changing the way authors must structure a novel. Sometimes a description of the lawn is the perfect way to open a novel (Pulitzer Prize winner "Independence Day" by Richard Ford, for example). But more and more, agents will immediately toss a manuscript that does not open with a guy getting shot at a phone booth.

I do understand the grind of reading lots of manuscripts. But sometimes, a great novel does not open with a bang. Of course it needs to open well, but sometimes a great novel takes a while to draw you in before it reveals its surprises.

I agonize over page one like no other. And now I think they'll make readers want to go to page two. I'm querying now, so I'll see if I've improved.

I've found the comments interesting. I've revised my first five pages at least 50 times. I think the first page has to have voice, no matter what's happening. A boring scene is interesting if it's described with personality. I tend to write with momentum. I get better towards the end. I write nonfiction and it's taken me 9 years to realise that 'I', my voice, was absent.

Good luck. I hope you find something good.

Kung fu aromatherapy elves.

That's what you need.

Equally kick ass and soothing, guaranteed to knead your irritation into a Brad Pitt's butt circa 'the baby years' softness scenario as you're sat, tethered to the MSS machine, reading ream after ream after ream of bizarrely thrust hopes.

Some of them play in Japanese indie bands.

All bake sumptuous cakes.

Don't wait for their chance arrival, awaft on a flurry of smoke.

Call to them now — oh, kung fu aromatherapy elves, so glad of Japanese indie, so stuffed to bursting with cakes, visit yourselves upon me, bring light to my mortal suffering etc.

Might work.

I like what Keith Popely has to say about EVERY page needing to be good.
I'm neck deep in revising right now and I have a question taped to the wall above my monitor - "Am I boring you?"

No car crashes - yet - in this book but voice, motivation and hopefully, that somethin', somethin' is coming through to someone other than me.

Yes, about that first page. I think all writers should just treat it like a conversation with someone else. You wouldn't necessarily start telling them about your battle with cancer (maybe), but you also wouldn't start launching into 21 questions about your favorite color, how many siblings, etc. (maybe). Divulging relevant information starts with tone.

Your reader has to know that you're speaking to them, and the best way to do that is to start off with a good tone or ambiance that gets them in as quickly as possible and makes them feel like they're entering a symbiotic discussion.

You can't go wrong when you have an appealing tone and/or sense of humor. It dispels crankiness and assures the reader that you're not out to "get" them or "trick" them.

LOL at Simon C. Larter. Yes, use those colorful fonts. I'm pretty sure agents and editors LOVE reading yellow on white. ;-)

I agree that the voice needs to be there from page 1, some type of internal conflict, at least. But I don't personally like a ton of action on page 1. I picked up a fiction book on Templars (huzb loves them) at B&N, but neither of us could get past the 1st page because it started with a battle and names and microscopic emotional indicators that were hard to attribute to the right character. Blah. I want to read, not work.

Although, for you it is work. *shrugs* What do you think is more important on the first page: voice or conflict?

I think its safe to say that talking about magical chickens who carry around tissues is a good way to make someone really happy...or want KFC..which in your case..may be both.

http://ptolemymaps-meyerprints.blogspot.com/

nice post!!

Katrina--voice, hands down!!

I'd love to see your response to a story in which the crisis has already happened, but we don't know what it is until half-way through the book. I'm thinking of Anybody Out There by Marian Keyes.
How do you think you'd have responded to her first page? Of course, I realize this would be second-guessing, but when you tell me that you're impatient and hard on first pages because you're up to your tutu in manuscripts, it sounds like expediency trumps quality.

I can really see your point here and if I ever do write that novel inside me I'll bear in mind what you say here.

I have frequently chosen the books I read by reading the first page. When I get to page two or three and come out of my reading reverie I know that this is probably the one for me.

Ian

I think some of the comments here are potentially misunderstanding the point. I'm not so sure that this is about plot expediency - after all, the post says that sometimes stories can start too fast! No, it's saying that if you're a good writer, there's no excuse for not pulling in the reader immediately. And that doesn't mean a bomb has to go off. Because sometimes bombs are boring, especially if they're too early and there are no stakes yet.

I find first pages really difficult. But I started to get better at them when I realized that you don't need to start the story off with "action", at least not the action movie kind.

What you need to start off a story is this - a compelling question. And compelling questions can be surprisingly subtle. If you make the reader ask a compelling question, a "What's going on here?" moment, then you create the impetus for the reader to read further and find out. Actually, I get kind of annoyed at all the "Start the story with action" advice when I think what people really mean is, "Start the story off with a question".

Then I think a high-quality novel will deepen the question and/or create new questions in order to maintain reader interest, while also raising the stakes in order to create emotional impact. If you have just one flashy question or moment in your first page, then people feel gypped in the long run.

Sorry. Didn't mean to write my own blog about it. I've been thinking about this a lot lately because I've written some of my first novel and I took a breather to outline and make sure I knew where I was going. So questions of reader interest and tension are really on my mind. I don't mean to sound like I even think I know what I'm talking about.

Thanks, anon. You heard me.

Thanks, I'm glad you liked some of my thoughts.

Actually, openings are my favorite part to write. It's the first flower of your idea; the contract between you and your reader: "This is my vision. Do you wanna come for the ride?"

They may be a pain to write, but the work feels better when tempered with enthusiasm!

I have never, ever purchased a book based on the first page. I base virtually all my purchases on word of mouth, reviews, even the jacket copy -- basically, once I hear what the book (the entire book) is about, I decide if I want to buy it.

Obviously, when querying, the query has to be stellar. The first pages have to be stellar. But cautioning writers that "your first page better rock my world" just seems so contrary to how people choose books.

Anonymous, it's okay to say that dummy Keith misunderstood the point, seeing as how I'm the only one arguing from my side of the table. You won't hurt my feelings. I do understand Moonrat's point and I am, in fact, somewhat in agreement with her. Every page must be good. But I maintain my assertion that overemphasizing the first page treats it as something different from the rest of the novel, that most writers have interpreted the need for a good first page to mean an exciting hook opening, and that the common structure of modern literature is being changed by the industry's emphasis on the first page.

And I will cite my first example again: "The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo" had just about the most uninteresting first page and downright boring first fifty pages possible. But it turned out to be a pretty good book.

I do, however, concede and even applaud your description of what an opening should provide: a question. However, that question does not necessarily need to appear on page one. A novel that is not a thriller or a mystery should be allowed time to introduce its world and characters, and should be allowed to build up to the question. I will also say that I agree with Moonrat's note that voice is critical right off the bat. We should know who is leading us through a story within a few pages and we should know whether we want to follow him/her. Or not.

The first pages have to be stellar. But cautioning writers that "your first page better rock my world" just seems so contrary to how people choose books.

I think this is a bit of a generalization. Plenty of people choose books by the first page, particularly that sort of person who browses in stores for the pleasure of the atmosphere. It's how I discovered Marjorie Liu -- a kickass first sentence.

That is not to say this is the only way I choose books. But an excellent opener defnitely ups the chance.

I often hear a variety of "tests" bandied about -- there are people who read the back blurb, the fisrt page, and then the first chapter in store before purchase, or people who read the first page and then a random page in the middle to see if the writer's style is consistent -- page 65 or whatever. Some people flip through to see if the thing is dialog-heavy, or description heavy, depending on whether they enjoy those things.

My point being, I guess, that one can't assume the general reading public chooses books in the same way one might themselves choose.

I personally don't trust word of mouth et cetera to apply to my tastes, much. I've been disappointed by fads, or even by reviewers or friends I respect. Taste is just too arbitrary and individual. Gotta have the hands-on experience on my own -- I've found it to be surer. And the fist page definitely plays into that (though not necessarily exclusively). For me.

Keith, you're 100 percent right about Dragon Tattoo. Just started reading it and have been baffled by how dull the first 75 pgs were. Hope it gets better.

Beyond that, of course, the first pg has to be strong. If someone stumbles across your book, picks it up and is not grabbed on pg 1, they'll just set it down and not buy it. Kind of a big deal.

This is of course all true, and anyone who submits a fiction manuscript to an agent or publisher needs to be aware of these constraints. On the other hand, judging fiction by its immediate impact, specifically by the impact of the first page, is to define oneself as a superficial reader.

Unfortunately, this is what writers are faced with. It also explains why Tinkers by Paul Harding was rejected by every major New York publisher and went on to win the Pulitzer Prize for fiction.

Isn’t something very wrong here?

I hate first pages for this very reason. So much pressure to get it right--and "right" is painfully subjective.

One writer friend put a it a good way, though: you earn the reader wanting to go to the second sentence, the second paragraph, the next page.

I don't write about explosions and the like. But if I can keep the reader interested, then it works.

I still hate first pages, though. I always have to rewrite them a gazillion times.

This post and several cogent comments made me feel a smidgen better about my manuscript. Thanks.

Recalcitrant Scrivener:
"George Washington Crosby began to hallucinate eight days before he died." That's how TINKERS starts, fwiw. Pretty compelling, no?

I'm curious as to how you choose a book to buy among the thousands at the bookstore. Assuming you don't have all day to browse and can't afford every single one. Blurbs? The cover? Awards won?

'Assume whoever is reading your submission is going to be in a terrible mood when they look at page 1."

Trust me, I don't have to assume- I "know*

Can you possibly describe the intangibles, the emotional reactions, or whatever it is that you find particularly irresistable? Or what things are generally markers of being interesting or outstanding?

I realize this is like asking you to describe color to the blind, or defining je ne sais quas (I hope I spelled that right.) Thanks!

I just re-wrote the first page of my novel because of this post.

And it's better.

Great advice.

I guess because I don't feel good I'm going to be a bit snarky here, but if a commenter wants to give writing advice, I'll take you much more seriously if you learn how to use the shift key and punctuation.

Now, on to Moonrat.

I've rewritten my first page and my first chapter so many times I don't know what reincarnation this is. I'm fine with that. I like what I have now. I learned a hard lesson at an Idol workshop at a conference how important it is to hook an agent immediately.

That being said, I also get a little weary from the open with action mantra. I have a friend with the most beautifully written fantasy. I revel in her words and she has the most visually entrancing opening, it's like walking into a Kincaid painting and then being hit with a legend. After reading over and over how you have to open with action, she scrapped the beginning and went to one with action. It's nice and it has intrigue and action, but I loved falling into her world.

Regardless, this is the world we live in and we either adapt or read our unpublished manuscripts to our grandchildren and tell them stories about how we dreamed of being a writer.

Ok, guys, though, seriously--I really NEVER said open with action. I said open with special. That's the world we live in.