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STATUS: I had a terrific day but can’t blog about why quite yet. So just know I’m in a great mood.
What’s playing on the iPod right now? BROKEN HEARTED HOOVER FIXER SUCKER GUY by Glen Hansard
Life would be good if people would quit asking me impossible questions. *grin*
And yes, I’ve taken the admonishment to do my emoticons correctly.
So this is the situation. Last week we asked for a full manuscript from a partial we had read. The writer emailed to say he was contemplating a big revision shifting POV.
Did I think first person or third person would work best for the story?
My answer? Not the faintest idea.
For some genres, like romance, a first person POV is always a tough sell so in that case, I’d probably recommend third. But for this instant, the manuscript was young adult.
There have certainly been bestsellers in this genre in the first person POV and bestsellers in the third person POV. The real answer is what POV best fits the story and best illustrates the main characters.
If we need to be inside the main character’s head, then first person POV. If the story would benefit from being able to head hop (as you can do in third person), well, then there you have it. But honestly, I can’t read the first 30 pages of a submission and tell you which I think would work better. Perhaps if I saw both submission side-by-side I could make a judgment but it’s very unlikely I would go to that trouble (unless we were talking about a current client).
I heard, and I have no idea if it’s true or not, that Suzanne Collins did the HUNGER GAMES first 50 to 100 pages both ways before choosing the final direction. Makes sense that a writer would need to explore both before making a final decision but ultimately, it’s the writer who will know best what feels right for the story.
At least that’s how I see it.
42 Comments on POV—Which Is Best?, last added: 5/9/2010
Thanks so much for this. I've been struggling and struggling with my POV. I've heard it said so many times that the third person POV is best for romance...but it just sounded so...blahhh... I coulnd't stand to write like that anymore with this character. It felt too 'he said, she said, they did that' to me. I wanted to really pin down the camera. Maybe in a nother one. I feel released from the stress of 'which way is best here?!' kind of thing. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Smaranda said, on 5/6/2010 6:31:00 PM
I think first person makes for an easier write, personally. Especially since the narrative part of the story can have a lot of flavor too, which isn't as normal in third person.
I also like using the "not there" first person - i.e. someone is clearly telling the story, but they're not actually part of the story, so it's in third person. (Is there any actual word for that, like first person omniscient or something? I'm sure there must be...)
Personally, I write whichever works best for the plot. If I change POVs often, I use third person. If I plan on using a plot that has a constant MC, I use first person. Really, it's all a matter of which works best.
I'm a writing professor and just finished a three-year long evaluation of 200+ randomly chosen YA books. The goal was to determine the extent to which external marketing drives sales and, in cases where sales exceeded or did not meet sales expectations, what caused the difference.
In YA, writing in first person was a huge advantage.
I didn't study adult books, so I can't tell you there. But in YA I would almost always always go with first person.
(my guess is that due to the developmental stages typical to adolescence, identity formation is a key motivation for reading and/or intellectual investigation. First person allows the reader to more fully immerse themselves into the protagonist--as if the story was happening to *them.*)
Regarding headhopping -- Stephanie Meyer did some first person head hopping in Breaking Dawn. It worked well, I thought, although I think it would only work in long stretches. Chapter by chapter headhopping in 1st person would get a little tiring.
I think first person is much more difficult to write, especially with some genres, like thriller. Some writers - like Steve Martini - do it exceptionally well, but when its done poorly, it shows.
Funny you posted this when you did. I pulled out an ms today that I hadn't touched in about a month or so. After writing about 50 pages--and every page a strugge--I set it aside in favor of more productive projects. Just this afternoon, I looked at it again, and thought maybe I should try it from a different angle (first person instead of third), and wow, what a difference. I have a new motivation to work on it again... unfortunately, I have other another project that is too far along now to stop the momentum (and ironically, it hadn't even been started when I'd set this other one aside). Such is how it goes. *sigh* I know I'll get back to it eventually, probably even by late summer, but it's hard to let that spark extinguish once it's been reignited.
This isn't the first time I've made a POV switch mid-draft, but I've never done it after *completing* a first draft. Usually, it happens within the first 50 pages, because by that point, I have a pretty good idea of whether something is working well or not.
We're working on the write-ups now, but we're looking to publish in some academic journals when we finish polishing the conclusions and such.
I've got a chapter coming out in a Palgrave-Macmillan textbook on creative writing and some of it will be there, though textbooks can be pricey and I think this one doesn't come out till next year.
I have a research-results summary I'd be happy to send you if you'd like. Just email me: [kerryspencer at byu dot edu.]
And on the jumping between character heads thing...
I think it's supposed to be sort of gauche in adult lit, but in YA lit, we found that it increased resonance levels in readers. not sure why, but go ahead and do it if it works. It might even help your sales.
I've found that first person works well in YA (both as a reader and a writer), for all the reasons stated above. Nice to see that thinking backed up by clinical results. :)
I agree that it depends on the story. My completed YA is in 3rd person, but the YA I've just started is in 1st person. It wasn't intentional - it's just how the story came out.
When I read Hunger Games, I got the distinct impression in many scenes that it was crying out to be written in past tense instead of present. Honestly, I think it would have been better that way. It would be interesting to see some of those third person pages of hers if she did make a switch.
I wrote my book in third because I switch POV several times depending on where the "action" is at that point. The young readers who've read it so far have really liked the movement.
Mary Kole was just talking about this on her blog (kidlit.com) It's one of those things (one of thousands) that no one can tell you which way is best.
I wrote my WIP in first and third for about 75 pages. Both had their pros and cons, but finally I decided to go with third and I'm happy with it.
At some point you've just got to make decisions and commit to them. You can second guess yourself until the end of time.
against head hopping said, on 5/6/2010 8:00:00 PM
Ugh. Head hopping is rarely a good idea. Even in third person.
However, close-third allows the reader to get into the character's head, with only one POV character.
Personally, I prefer first person for YA, and close-third for MG.
Marie Lu said, on 5/6/2010 8:10:00 PM
Fascinating research, Kerry!
I've never been able to write well in third-person POV...my characters always come out flat and 1D, with little life and spark.
Something I've noticed in YA (and maybe this is just me, I don't know) is that head-hopping first-person POVs are not uncommon (i.e. Rules of Attraction, Shiver), and that even when third-person POV is used, it tends not to head-hop but stays very closely with one character (i.e. Harry Potter, Fire, The Giver, etc).
I also thought it was interesting that romance prefers third-person POV. I've always wondered why I didn't read more romances with first-person POVs since heavy emotions are involved (and since men don't really read romances I would think there's less need to head-hop into the male lead's head)....but I guess the genre must have its reasons that I'm too naive to see!
I have to chime in against head-hopping. I have been taken out of story so many times when an author bounces from one character's thoughts to another mid-scene. It makes me have to figure out who's thinking or why we aren't with the main character. Unless a writer is really skilled and can do it seamlessly (there are those authors), I think it has potential for losing the reader. I don't mind if it's done at scene breaks with set-up line that lets you know which character you're with. Whether choosing the POV to use or deciding whether to alternate POV, I think the author should have solid reasons for being in a particular viewpoint. And you can also add mystery by not having too many viewpoints. It bugs me to have a mystery or secret revealed at the end that a veiwpoint character would have known but never thought about during the course of the story. I feel manipulated by that scenario. That's my two cents, which I toss around freely on this subject, realizing that other people may disagree.
how interesting about hunger games. i haven't read it, but i did the same thing with my current work in progress. i was already over 50 pages in when i realized it just wasn't working as well as i thought it should. so i decided to rewrite in first person and compare which was better. i even gave both versions to a couple beta readers who both agreed with me: first person pov was better for this novel.
kristen is absolutely right when she says you have to choose the one that is a better fit and best illustrates the main characters.
True, comes down to the story..though it does get disturbing when one's writing in first POV and you know the person and they are going on and on about some really weird stuff..really disturbing
It's not head-hopping; it's toggling narrative distance, LOL.
I've learned a lot by re-writing something in third that I've written in first. In fact, I've even gone so far as to write something in first, re-write in third, and then re-write in first. A lot of good things come of that exercise. If one has the time, lol.
How convenient! I was just discussing my own issues with this problem today! Of course, I wasn't thinking in terms of 'which sells better?', but in terms of 'which can I support more?'
I'd say 99% of my writing has been in 3rd person. I've used it consistently for upwards of 5 years now, and I'm comfortable with it. Then, out of the blue, my character decides SHE wants to tell her story, so step aside. What's more, she decided this at 4am and dragged me out of bed to start it. Not very nice at all.
Now I'm left with the decision of whether I want to continue letting her take the reigns - if she'll actually be able to control herself for the whole story - or if I want to fall back into my comfort zone. And what if I make the wrong choice and end up 50 or 100 pages in with no place to go? Ugh.
First person POV is great if you want to suffuse a whole story in a single character's voice. It helps to encourage the reader to identify with the character and it keeps the author grounded in that character's sensibility. And there's a smoothness and efficiency to aligning the reader with the same character in every single scene.
This is especially effective in mystery or suspense type novels where the reader and the character are both kind of confused, and trying to figure out what's going on. It also works very well in YA or chick lit stories where the reader and protagonist are trying together to decode social cues and figure out the motives of the other characters. If you hate first-person, though, a close limited third person narration can be just as effective.
Head jumping and perspective shifts become impossible in first person, eliminating any tricky choices about how and when to do these things. Authorial decisions about what to describe and how to describe things can be simplified by filtering those decisions through the character.
However, when significant plot events take place outside that character's presence, it is often more elegant to jump to a different perspective character, rather than relating these events to the first-person narrator (and the reader) as expository dialog. This is especially true in some complicated thrillers or fantasy/sci-fi epics, where plot events are happening simultaneously to different characters in different places.
If you want the reader to know something the protagonist does not, or to focus on some detail that the protagonist ignores, it is very difficult to achieve that in first person. Similarly, if the protagonist knows some big twist or secret that the reader does not, the reveal will feel like a cheat in the intimate confines of first person. And sometimes, you may want to keep some distance between the protagonist and the reader, so the reader can doubt the character's motives.
If you really love first-person, it is possible to solve these problem by shifting among multiple first person narrators, but it is very difficult to manage multiple distinct narrative voices in a single story.
The main sub-genre that I feel isn't a good match for first person is Epic Fantasy. Doesn't sound like a good plan to me.
My first YA novel, that I'm still working on, is one where I wrote the first draft in first person. It's now in third person. I had to get through it all and really see where things were going before figuring out that it won't work in that point of view. Things like that happen.
And the truth is that you're right. It's whatever fits best with that story. That, and maybe what the author prefers to write in. If a writer dislikes first person, or third person, then that may hinder their writing if they try to force it on themselves.
I've been a subscriber to this blog for only a short time thus far, but I have to say, I think Kristin is inside my head. It seems like her blog posts perfectly correspond to whatever writer dilemna is currently plaguing me.
While writing my current manuscript, I ran into problems deciding on a PoV. I caught myself hopping from my MC's 1st to side scenes where I would use 3rd as my MC wasn't present, giving the reader a "sneak peek." I honestly don't know if it will end up working, but I've decided to go with it and see where it will take me. I can always cut/change it in the end, as good writing is mostly in the revision.
I also read a great article online about it: http://www.tarakharper.com/k_frstpr.htm I'm not affiliated with that website in any way, but I found it helpful.
This is a great question, and one that hardly gets any air time. Kudos to you Kristin! I love your blog and this is why.
I too have experienced the epiphany that my book would work better in first person than third. This was an apocalyptic book, and I just wasn’t feeling the events the way I wanted to. So I changed the POV from third to first.
I discovered something. It’s possible to write something almost as intimate as first person in third person limited. There is a slight difference, but I think the largest different exists in our minds. We think “oh, this is third person, it’s not as intimate as first” so we just write from the distance we’re used to. I had a lot of fun writing another book in third person limited and trying to keep it as intimate as first person. You guys should try it sometime. Write a passage in first, especially if the protagonist is opinionated, and then switch it to third. Start by just changing pronouns, and the character name to “I”.
There is a difference, of course, but it doesn’t have to be as big as you think.
Personally, I think first person gets overused. I love first person, but I have read many a novel where I think it should have been written in third. The character didn’t have a really strong, unique voice, and so things were sort of hum-hum. It wouldn’t have been as bad in third person. I think if you’re going the first person route, you need to make sure your character has a unique, distinct voice to tell your story. Otherwise it’s a hindrance.
I actually have a difficult time writing in first person. Third has alwasy been easiest for me to write, but I know I ought to learn how to write first person better in order to become a well rounded writer.
Anyway my current book is third. My only issue is trying to figure out if I should add another perspective or not. I've added a few scenes with my other character but it's seems stilted, probably because I don't "know" him well enough yet. Guess I just have to keep writing!
A great topic to think about. I'm not sure what I feel about third person vs first person. When I wrote the first pages of my project and sent it out to my critique group, they all agreed that first person would be difficult to pull off and that third person would sound more "professional". I think perhaps it's because I'm writing in the fantasy genre, and they also said there are an abundance of terrible novels in first person. But I love first person, I think there's something interesting about seeing things from such a narrow perspective.
Both my published novels were entirely rewritten from a different POV. I started my adult novel in first person, but received a critique that the narrator lacked the life experience and insight to carry the story. I switched to third person, which also allowed me to get into the heads of the two other principal characters, one who in the course of the revision clearly became the protagonist. In the process of revising, more than half of the scenes were new, to accommodate the other two characters' perspectives.
In the case of the YA, I originally wrote it in third person, but the editor felt she couldn't connect with the story. At that time I was young and maybe didn't have the skill yet to switch into a first person teenage male voice. (For some reason, switching the POV didn't occur to any of us.) I gained that skill when I wrote the adult novel from the first person POV of a woman hardly out of her teens, so the false start wasn't a total waste. I gutted the YA, leaving only the first chapter (in third person for reasons that become evident later on in the story) and rewriting the rest--all new scenes, too--from alternating first person POV. And while the story is mainly told from the POV of the male protagonist, his girlfriend narrates about 60 pages in the middle because she sneaks off and finds out/experiences things that he can't know--in this way heightening the urgency and dramatic irony.
Just wanted to comment that I recently finished All Roads Lead Me Back to You by Kennedy Foster (one of Janet Reid's books) and she headhops within scenes and does it brilliantly. I'd been anti-headhopping till I read her book. I really can't imagine the story being told another way.
I wrote my last YA in 1st person. This time I'm using third. I know 1st person is really popular in YA. I just can't bring myself to do it this time. I mostly stay in one character's head, but occasionally need to show something else. It's a tough, tough call. Especially when 1st person feels like an easier write.
I am personally not a fan of head-hopping EVER. I've read tons of other agents are very anti-head-hopping as well. On the flip side, I don't consider switching to another characters POV at a chapter break head-hopping, nor do I consider it head-hopping when you switch at a scene break.
I don't mind switching character POV's during a chapter change, but I dislike it during a scene change. Furthermore, I am much more comfortable with switching "heads" in third person than in first.
Lastly, I think third person should ALWAYS be third person limited (or close third, or whatever). Unless you are writing third person omniscient, and are CLEARLY not in any one persons head, it is rough on the reader to jump back and forth, and they will lose that all-important connection to the main character.
I'm not a huge fan of reading third person (it takes longer for me to get into the story), and when I try to write in 3P, it always falls flat.
I do read third person sometimes, if I love the concept enough, but the whole omniscient (I think that's the right word ... my brain is friend), head-hopping thing isn't for me. I need the writer to focus on one character per chapter, or at least per section. Otherwise, it starts to feel like talking heads, and I can't get grounded in the story.
@jessjordan: I agree with the omniscient comment. This post inspired me to write about the common POV's... you should see what I wrote... kinda backs up your feeling. http://www.cmichaelfontes.com/
"Last week we asked for a full manuscript from a partial we had read. The writer emailed to say he was contemplating a big revision shifting POV."
I'm absolutely astounded that an aspiring writer would have the nerve to do that. My God, if the agent liked the partial's POV, just send the full out. Don't start overhauling the whole manuscript now and wasting the agent's time!
Kristin wrote: If we need to be inside the main character’s head, then first person POV. If the story would benefit from being able to head hop (as you can do in third person), well, then there you have it.
A little POV 101.
In first person, we're "inside" the main character's head only as they report to us. They may or may not be telling us the truth -- the unreliable narrator -- depending upon why is they are telling this story [that is, what triggered the story or what is their purpose in telling the story]; who is their contextualized audience [you would tell the same story differently to a police officer then you would your best friend in a locker room]; and, what is the narrative distance in time [that interval between where the narrator is now in their life and the moment of when the events recounted occurred]. Third person doesn't have those issues of reliability. Moreover, if you write in third person using free indirect discourse, the narrative is right inside the mind of a focalizing character (a "focalizer"), unmediated, as the narrator and focalizer "share" a consciousness. So it's not accurate to say you get in the mind of a character in first person and you don't in third.
Second, it's true that, in third person, depending upon how the narrative distance in space is manipulated (the distance between the narrator and the focalizer), depending on the level of omniscience, you can move more or less freely among focalizers. This allows a different kind of freedom than first person but one that many writers use simply to give us information for the sake of plot. Because you can change focalizers doesn't mean you should. But, let us not forget that many writers, among them, Barry Hannah and Philip Roth, have used first person omniscience to great effect. The same "head hopping" (I don't like that term I'm afraid), Kristin refers to. We can naturalize these by believing that the narrator, as a reporter might do, learned what happened from other characters and then presents the novel as if they were there as the events unfolded.
Many (new) writers assume that writing in first person is easier to write because of their strong personal identification with the "I" of the story. But they don't realize that the "I" is a construct, just another character.
Perhaps the reason that some of the commenters here have a problem writing in third person is because they don't quite get how to manipulate that narrative distance in space. If there is distance, if there is narratorial mediation (and by that I mean the narrator is constantly telling us what a focalizer is seeing or thinking or feeling rather than just give us what is seen or thought or felt), if there is a disconnect between the diction and imagery and word choice, the language used, in the story and the worldview of a focalizer, this will cause the problems described in the comments.
I teach English for YA's and I recently had a conversation w/ one of my students on this very topic. She started to read a novel and gave up. When I asked her why, she said, "I hate when they talk in first person."
Funny thing... A couple of weeks before I had checked out the same book out our library, read a couple of chapters, and then put it down for EXACTLY the same reason.
So I think first person is trendy in YA right now, but I don't think it's a MUST DO, if you get my drift.
Anonymous said, on 5/7/2010 7:53:00 PM
I don't think first person is going to work well in YA with a grand theme, eg, Pullman or Rowling for example -- there's too much that can't be conveyed. Small ideas like Twilight. . .obviously yes, and perhaps middle grade as well.
Third close/limited is much more flexible and useful.
I've tried omniscient third. It just doesn't work for me. I can't manage head-hopping properly and end up falling back on one person's POV by the end of the scene. I tend to play it in limited third from the start, now, and then head-hop around via subsections within the chapter, but each section is a single person's POV.
I'm a bit of an orator, so first person humor comes very naturally to me. Third person narrative humor is a lot harder to pin down, but it's almost more rewarding for it. I have a satire in the works that pretty much begs to be written in first person, though. Who am I to argue?
Thanks - this is one of those things that goes around - no one want this, editors will shoot you down if you do that, when the reality is you should write the book the BEST was possible.You can't remind writers of that enough.
Maybe your prospective client can do like Jodi Thomas, whose "Twisted Creek" has both first person and third person pov?
Ordinarily, I wouldn't suggest it, but it worked out really well in Twisted Creek. The protaganist was in first person, but when the pov switched to the male mc, it was third person.
I love reading third person, myself, but her character had such a voice, that I was totally caught up in the first person chapters, then when it switched to third, I was equally happy, because that's what I love.
STATUS: I got one major contract off my desk and on to somebody else’s at the publishing house. Always a great feeling.
What’s playing on the XM or iPod right now? SOMETIMES YOU CAN'T MAKE IT ON YOUR OWN by U2
Yesterday I was explaining that agents don’t often have time to give detailed feedback because that would entail a critique of the manuscript and doing so is time-consuming.
Well, I should have clarified. Once a year, I always take the time to do exactly that for one lucky auction winner.
I read the 30 pages twice. First read to familiarize myself with the submission and the second read to actually write in-depth critique feedback in track changes of the Word doc. Just like I do for my clients when I read before submitting their material.
So if you want in on that action, it’s time to head over to Brenda Novak’s yearly auction to raise money for diabetes research. My critique page is here. Since I have a good friend plus a brother–in-law with diabetes, this auction is close to my heart.
This is a fabulous idea! Unfortunately I'm a little low on funds, so I can't bid. But I'm so glad you guys are doing this. I hope you raise a lot of money.
Would love to take advantage of an opportunity like this. My manuscript is ready to go but I am having difficulty fitting it into a neat and tidy genre package! That is to say, if I were to describe it how I feel I should describe it, it would be A ROMANTIC FANTASY ADVENTURE. So you see my dilemma. If I peg it wrong, I may get passed based on the genre I have chosen. I am reluctant to simply call it a ROMANCE or FANTASY ROMANCE or ROMANTIC FANTASY...well you see what I mean. I would love someone to speak to this issue. Can I call it a ROMANTIC FANTASY ADVENTURE without risking an auto pass?
This is an awesome opportunity for someone with some bucks. Unfortunately being unemployed for over a year, that won't be me. Still, I'm bookmarking for next year. At least while I'm not working, I have lots of time to write!
What’s playing on the XM or iPod right now? RED RIVER VALLEY by Frank Macchia and Tierney Sutton
This weekend was an interesting one for me. I read our slush pile for the first time in several years. Grin.
What do I mean by that? Well, I hired Sara Megibow more than four years ago and once she was fully trained, she read all incoming submissions to set aside the ones that I actually needed to review. In other words, I read only a third of all the actual submissions that came to the agency.
As we train Anita, somebody needs to read behind her to make sure she’s forwarding the right submissions on to Sara and to me. Anita will become the reader of all things while Sara and I can have a reduced workload. There isn’t enough time in the day for us to read ALL incoming submissions.
So this weekend I read eleven different sample page submissions and one salient point became very clear. There are decent writers out there who are totally starting their stories in the wrong place which can obscure what the novel is really about. If I’ve read 30 pages and it’s clear to me that we still haven’t gotten to the right beginning, it’s a pass. So the biggest writing culprit writers need to watch for that will indicate a story starting in the wrong place?
Back story.
One submission had several scenes that weren’t really relevant to where the novel actually started—which was in chapter three (around page 27). The opening scenes were essentially back story—info the writer needs to know but the reader doesn’t. Back story needs to be integrated throughout the novel in a masterful way.
Second biggest culprit?
Minutiae.
In other words, the writer is overcompensating for the wrong beginning by including beginning scenes with too much detail about the characters and all the underlying tension of the relationships so all that is clear before the novel can “begin.” The details are certainly good to have but they are placed in scenes that don’t actually move the story forward. In other words, the only purpose of the scene is to introduce characters. Then by chapter three or four, suddenly we have the actual story.
I know this is happening when I read and think, not bad writing here but this author needs some judicious editing as I’m getting bogged down in details but the story isn’t actually moving forward with momentum and tension.
Writers who are actually ready for agent submission have mastered the art of seamlessly integrating back story and relevant character details into a plot that moves the story forward. Those who haven’t are probably getting passes on sample pages and no requests for the full (although an agent might highlight there is decent writing on the page).
And I know what you are thinking. Why can’t agents just say this? Because it would take too much time to point it out and clearly illustrate it. That would be critiquing the manuscript which is too time-consuming.
Which is why I’m trying to use this blog entry to point this out. I know examples would help but I don’t have permission from submitters to use their work on this blog.
ps. Thanks for all the embed songs into blog tips. I'll check out the sites and see what I can start using.
43 Comments on Starting A Novel In The Wrong Place, last added: 5/5/2010
Cool post. Interesting since I have just critiqued another author for possibly the wrong starting point for a story.
I've panned an agent for 'not getting it'. As a moderately successful author I've submitted my novel and found the agent in question just did not read nearly as eruditely as I anticipated. Don understood my stuff. His junior agent did not. Something I find distressing in American Agents as opposed to British ones...
Starting in the right place is tough stuff. I had to cut 30k words on one of my WIPs b/c, well, the story didn't really get started until the 30,001 word. :) But it was crazy torture to cut all of that character-building (i.e., all of the super fun scenes that I made up just to get to know my characters) nonetheless.
I have to say I learned the hard way. Only after a couple of rejections I saw it in my own MS, though no agent said it explicitly. I've been revising it like crazy after I found the "real" beginning, about 80 pages in.
Hey, I'll be happy to send you some of my novel beginnings to use as examples. If I can't be published and in the bookstore, being the bad example on an agent's blog is the next best thing. Hmm. Okay, maybe it's the 93rd best thing, but fame is fame!
This is utterly timely for moi as, having written the novel I needed to write, I am currently writing the one readers need to enjoy. Yes, they are the same book. And thanks to Brenda Baker, Yoda aka, who pointed me in the right direction (and towards this blog).
One of the best tips I received early on was the fish-cleaning method of editing. Cut off the head and tail of a scene. I took that suggestion to heart and even cut off the head and tail of dialogue. Not literally, of curse, because not everything can be cut. But it does make me constantly aware of how many filler words can be in narrative and dialogue.
For those who need help with figuring out where the real beginnings of their stories are, there are sites that assist authors. One such site is Forward Motion for Writers. (It is the only one I know, but all the writers I know there are very helpful and kind and some could probably give references to other helpful writing sites.)
I was poking around on your website the other day and I couldn't see how many sample pages you ask for in a submission--so I'm glad this subject came up. How many pages do you like to see along with the query?
I tried to point out to a writer I'm critiquing that his first couple chapters drag terribly, but he came back with, "If I don't show how things 'used to be', then I can't show how they change!" I understand the concept of showing contrast, but at the same time I don't think it's working the way he thinks it is.
Suggestions on how to break it to him another way?
Jen P said, on 5/4/2010 3:03:00 AM
This is simple but insightful. And as I start writing my opening chapter today after months of research, perfect timing. Thank you.
Learning where to start a story has been one of the most useful things I've done for improving my own writing. I can't count the number of times I've read something (particularly if it's fantasy) that contains a mind-numbing amount of unnecessary padding before the plot gets started.
Anonymous said, on 5/4/2010 5:07:00 AM
Great advice. I think we as writers concentrate on our own submissions so much we forget how much competition for agent spots are out there. I recently left my agent Gary Heidt after many years together and now am back to the search for agents. I do have several full ms. under review right now, and sometimes the anxiousness of waiting for a reply outweigh the reality of how many submissions the agent has to go through. The first chapters are so important.
I know everyone may not be able to afford it but getting your work professionally copy edited before submitting might solve this problem. I'm not agented or published but I recently did this, and the editor pointed out this exact same problem. I'm confident now that my manuscript is polished. I think if you take this confidence to querying you stand a good chance of success.
My advice for finding an editor. Follow their blog and see how they interact with followers. Ask lots of questions. Don't let your heart or enthusiasm decide. Take your time. I hope you find a good match. Good luck. Thank you Kristin. Cheers, Simon.
Although I realized this a year or so ago - and cut 30 pages clean away from my ms, I STILL have to remind myself of it every day. Thanks for the post.
Vicki, it sounds to me like the writer isn't going to hear you. Some people aren't ready, and I've found in critique that the more defensive they are, the less likely they are to change--including what needs to be changed. Your job is to critique; the rest is up to the writer. You've done your job. Maybe he'll be ready later, maybe not. But it's down to him.
I know my WIP currently does not start where it will start; part of that is just writerly housekeeping that is yet to be done this draft go round. But getting the start right is a tough thing to learn. I think I'm correct about where to begin, but I'm open to change, definitely. There's a reason they call it a first draft!
James Scott Bell has said that a story should begin with a disturbance in the lead’s life. As a reminder to myself, I call this the initial disturbance. Wherever we choose to start, the first part of the story will be what the reader sees as the status quo for our protagonist and that won’t change until we get to the inciting incident later in the story. We want our status quo to be interesting enough to carry the story for a while, so we want to start at a point when the status quo is about to “kill” the character. I don’t mean that literally, but when we consider a book like The Adventures of Tom Sawyer we see a simple beginning of his aunt trying to find him and yet that beginning reveals that Tom would like to have more freedom than his aunt allows.
"backstory--info the writer needs to know but the reader doesn’t."
Yep, a trusted reader called me out on this early on, and I realized the first few pages that I'd written were simply me thinking through the characters and what I wanted to convey about them...I didn't initially have the patience to let the story's progression reveal these characteristics more naturally, and the subsequent revisions are so much stronger.
And re: Jordan's comment above about starting "with ONE incident that's a case study for what's wrong with the character's life," I'm hoping that is an effective way of beginning, as it's what my first chapter briefly captures.
Thanks to you and your commenters for the valuable insights!
Anonymous said, on 5/4/2010 8:05:00 AM
Ack, I'm struggling with this at the moment. I got a personalised rejection of a partial saying that the opening chapter 'was backstory', when it is in fact the start of the story - a cop discovering a theft and being set on the case.
My betas all liked the start and one even said I started too late - I should have shown the theft!
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I've looked and looked and I can't see where else I can start it because that is where the story starts.
My heart dropped when I read your post, since I'm pretty sure my story was in the slush pile. You're more than welcome to use my pages as an example. I'd love to have your insight as to how I can make my story better!
Fantasy Author Terry Brooks addressed this in his memoir/writing advice book.
I paraphrase, but he basically said, Nothings starts at the beginning. Things tend to begin and end in the middle of other things, so do yourself and your readers a favor and start in the middle of something interesting instead of something boring.
The book is 'Sometimes the Magic Works' and it is an excellent read regardless of what genre you write in.
I really enjoy your blog, and todays post is perfect for me right now. I knew my first chapter had issues and all of this makes sense. I am going back to rewrite and rewrite and rewrite! Practise makes perfect!
Interesting discussion, and good general advice if not specific advice, it would seem to me. I assume it does not mean that *some* backstory/exposition is not useful at the beginning of a story. I can see that two chapters is a bit much!
I wouldn't like to think that a somewhat inexperienced agent's assistant (not in this case I'm sure, but you get my drift) had a check-list that looked something like this:
backstory -- out! adverbs -- out! telling not showing --out!
That's what I usually call 'creative fiction fascism' (but again not in this case).
It's worth counting the number of adverbs Rowling uses in her dialogue attributions to see how readers don't really care much about creative fiction 'rules' as long as it's a good read.
This feedback is worth its price in gold as is all of Kristin's advice. Finding the right start for a novel is probably one of the toughest parts of the process. If you're in the San Francisco Bay Area, I'm teaching a craft class on this very subject called "Strong Beginnings" this Saturday 5/8. Info here: http://bit.ly/cetB8h
Good to know! I would like to see more posts like this, on what writers are doing right/wrong. Haven't seen as much of these lately. Maybe get Anita's thoughts from time to time ;)
One other comment I could make: It strikes me that the "not too much backstory" rule agents & editors are always going on about isn't nearly as important as they claim. Because I keep running across books that break this rule over and over again, so despite y'all's complaints about it, you're still letting many of these get through the process. An example I'm reading now is "The Perfect Storm" which should have been called "The Perfect Bore" because I'm almost halfway through and it's not even raining yet. Although a big wave has just crashed into the boat so does this mean the storm is starting? NO!!! It means it's time to go back to yet ANOTHER long draggy passage about New England fishing techniques, sword fishing in particular, boat equipment, Newfoundland geography, how sucky it is to be at sea for a month without women, etc.
Hell, I'm FROM New England and I find this boring! A storm, a storm, my kingdom for even a freaking drizzle! Granted, "The Perfect Storm" is non-fiction but I recently read Anna Quindlen's "Rise & Shine" which snuck in the boring backstory every other sentence, it seemed. That can slow a story down just as much as whole chunks or chapters of backstory.
This sort of thing just encourages beginning writers to ignore these "rules", y'know!
STATUS: Not happy. Still no Amazon links to Macmillan client books.
What’s playing on the iPod right now? HUNGRY FOR YOU by The Police
Kristin’s incomplete list of why prologues don’t work:
1. When the sole purpose of the prologue is to fill the reader in on the back story so the real story can begin.
This is so easy to point out but harder to explain.
In the example of UNDONE, Brooke needed a prologue to show how it all started. To juxtapose who the girls were when they first “meet” versus who they are when chapter 1 begins. The prologue also serves a strong purpose. It sets tone, character, and sets up several questions. Why did Kori become a “I-puke-cheerleaders-for-breakfast” kind of girl? Something has happened but what? Why is Serena obsessed with her by her own admission? And it’s very clear that these two girls have nothing in common in this bathroom scene yet Kori calmly states that they are more alike than Serena knows. They are connected.
This is a prologue with a clear purpose. The reader should want to know more by the end or it doesn’t work. It’s also masterful. Brooke managed to accomplish quite a bit in just 4 short paragraphs and this leads me to the second reason why prologues often don’t work.
2. They are too long.
This is the death of a manuscript if a writer has problem #1 and then it’s combined with problem #2.
3. When the prologue is in a whole different style or voice from the rest of the manuscript.
Then when chapter 1 begins, readers are left flummoxed—especially if that style or tone of voice is never revisited.
4. When the prologue is solely there to provide an action scene to “draw the reader in” but then serves no other purpose or is not connected to the main story arc or is only loosely so.
5. When the prologue introduces the evil character simply so the reader can “know” what is at stake.
I can sum this up in two words. Clumsy writing.
6. When the prologue is supposed to be cool (or I might reword this to say the writer thinks it sounds cool).
Lots of writers overwrite when creating a prologue. It shows.
When all of the above is happening (and there are probably a dozen more reasons why prologues often don’t work), it becomes really clear that the writer isn’t paying attention to dialogue, character development, plot pacing, etc. All key elements of good writing.
This is why almost all the agents I know completely skip the prologue and start with chapter one when reading sample pages. A beginner writer might actually be able to do good character, dialogue, tone, pacing, and whatnot but it’s more than likely not going to show in the prologue.
Now in defense of the prologue, when it’s done well, it’s truly an amazing tool. The number of times I’ve seen a prologue done extraordinarily well in requested submissions? Well, I can count that total on two hands….
"This is why almost all the agents I know completely skip the prologue and start with chapter one when reading sample pages."
I'm so glad you said that because I once asked students if they read prologues. Some did and liked them but most agreed they just skipped them. One girl explained: "Because the book doesn't start there."
I see why many prologues do not work, especially for first time authors. I have a prologue myself and I had to revisit it several times before I made it work. It's a mere one page and it's necessary because it's an introduction to a series and a fantasy realm. It's a concise look into the world my heroine resides and gives a brief and enticing glimpse into the events that follow.
If anyone wants to read a perfect example of #3, read Fern Michaels' "Pretty Woman." The prologue is from Vickie's POV, but the rest of the story is from Rosie's. The story was good, but the wrong POV prologue had me feeling off-kilter throughout the rest of the story.
This will always be a hot debate. I've argued on both sides of it in the past, and am now content to say, "Whatever works, works."
The key, however, is that you need to know WHY certain things work and why others don't. Many common "new writer" mistakes are made simply because they're new writers. They don't have the experience of trial and error behind them, and oftentimes, that is the only way we learn.
Someone can tell you "don't do this, and don't do that," until they're blue in the face. But until you try it yourself and practice and apply what you learn, you won't fully understand what they were telling you.
I've seen it with prologues. I've seen it with "showing vs telling." I've seen it with "keeping tension on every page." You think you get it, but you don't. The problem is, you don't realize that you didn't understand, until you DO understand.
Writing is a craft. It's not something that you can simply say, "This is how you do it, and this method will always work." It's not horseback riding, or carpentry, or baseball. There's much more gray than black and white, and that's where the new writers are getting lost and discouraged. In the gray area.
I consider prologues a gray area. Sometimes they work, and sometimes they don't. They often don't for the reasons stated above. Conversely, it would be nice to see some examples here of prologues that do work, limited number that they are, so we have something to compare to.
Thought provoking . . . Gonna have to reconsider my little prologue. I like it and think it's one that would survive the cut, but . . I wrote it. Of course I think it's good . . . Better cut it.
Remember that a prolog and an epilog are just a method of framing a work.
The only thing in a prolog should be something that absolutely sets the tone, mood, theme, etc, of a work, and therefore changes how the reader will experience the first scene or chapter.
If it doesn't change the meaning of the first chapter, then save it and put it in a flashback - once you've earned the right to a flashback. If it doesn't affect the story at all, then sprinkle it through - or drop it in an appendix.
On the other hand, if it's the same characters, the same subject, and so on - or if your book already jumps time zones and places between chapters - then call it "Chapter One" and get on with it.
I still find it hard to give up my prologue because IT'S JUST SO MUCH DAMN FUN to write it for this book. I'll try to knock it off but I enjoy it so much!
Thanks for the insight, Kristin. I generally skip prologues. I find them often manipulative, a cheap attempt to shock the reader. When talking with others and in reading contemporary fiction, I find confusion between the use of a prologue as a narrative framing device and the use of a preface. For example, one highly popular YA novel begins with a preface and ends with a epilogue. Call me picky but it bothers me. Any thoughts?
What if I sent an agent the first three chapters, and get a request for the full manuscript, would the agent have a negative reaction upon finding a prologue?
Great info! I generally don't like to read prologues--which I now know are due to those reasons you've listed. :) But when I read one that's done right, it can really make a story.
I just wanted to say how much I'm enjoying your opening pages series. I rushed out and bought and read 'Soulless' as soon I'd read those first few pages (and suggested to my London bookstore that they order in some more). My only complaint is that I have to wait until May for the next installment!
I'm also writer-in-residence at a school next week and am going to use your opening pages session as the basis for a workshop. The aim is to help kids understand how to hook their readers right away and, of course, read them some great openings and persuade them that they need to rush out and buy the books!
I suspect that 'Pain Merchants' is going to be rather popular...
Mine is exactly 600 words. It makes you go OMG. It's actually the middle point of the book (where the first scene would be in order) and then the first chapter backs up to 3 months before to tell you how you arrive at the OMG scene. The scene is the premise of the entire book.
The prologue was actually a short fiction work that got lots of good comments for it's drama and emotion and people wanted to know more (which is how it's becoming a full length piece.)
The best prologue ever is from Guy Gavriel Kay's Tigana. Amazing book. The prologue, though the reader doesn't realize it until much later, sets the stage for the entire novel. One sentence only, that most readers will probably forget and then . . . oh, my!
I learned from experience that, normally, what fits in a prologue can be interspersed throughout the first chapter . . . using less words. : )
Arrrrgh. I'm struggling with 'is this one of those rules that should be broken in my particular situation?' I know, the odds are against me, but I tried it by the rule first and it feels off.
I believe the most important thing to remember about the prologue is that it absolutely must be a part of the story, but because it takes place with a different time, place or characters than the rest of the story it seems appropriate to label it differently. Because of where it is in the story, the prologue must be the beginning of our introduction of the problem that we are trying to solve. In A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court, Mark Twain uses the prologue to introduce the protagonist, a man we quickly see has trouble getting along with people and through most of the story takes place in a different time and place, we see that it is this problem that carries the rest of the story.
Anonymous said, on 2/4/2010 7:13:00 AM
Thank you! I can't stand prologues, and never read them. This is certainly just me, but I always get the sense that the writer is a little self-important about their work -- needing to go outside the normal realm of just beginning the book on the first page -- as if to say, look at me, I'm writing!!
Water For Elephants (fiction) The Cliff Walk (memoir) The Prince Of Frogtown (memoir) Dark Sun (nf) Friday Night Lights (nf) Barbarians At The Gate (nf) Den Of Thieves (nf)
I've ranted about prologues a couple of times in the past, so your complaints are familiar! I also hate the world-building prologue, in which a ton of stuff about countries and races and etc is infodumped by a writer who doesn't know that story = character + conflict.
Other prologue things that infuriate me: * Lack of continuity between prologue and first chapter. None of the same people, places, plot elements etc. * Prologues which don't become relevant for ages and ages. * Protagonist's birth prologues = overdone. * Prophecy prologues = ditto.
I can only think of a handful of prologues I truly enjoyed. Scott Lynch sold me on The Lies of Locke Lamora and Joe Abercrombie on Best Served Cold by way of their superb prologues. Other books - not so much.
there is nothing more disconcerting than reading this a few days after submitting a sample with prologue and thinking, "oh no! She's not talking about me?"
So I will believe instead that I committed none of the 6 sins of prologue writing. Until an editor-friend tells me otherwise.
The best prologue I've ever seen is the one that kicks off the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan. It does rather break most of the rules above, though.
It's also the main reason I've read through the long, involved series, no matter how much it's meandered. That prologue was effectively the end of the story last time this set of circumstances came around. It was utterly chilling and it gave you a sense of what was at stake. Evil may not have triumphed entirely, but good was vanquished and the world destroyed. Will this time be any different? After 18 years, I am still anxious as hell to find out.
What a prologue that is, for all intents and purposes, just a chapter. I have a prologue where the only reason it's a prologue and not Chapter 1 is that it's from the POV of one character when the rest of the novel is from the POV of a second character and I thought the transition would be jarring without making the former a prologue.
Is the stigma against prologues so great that I'm better off just making my prologue Chapter 1? It really is just a normal chapter besides.
I hate prologue! Okay, not all, but since I am a fan of fantasy I see it all the time and 9 times out of 10 I just think it's a crappy cop-out. The writer didn't know how to skillfully weave in the backstory and expose the important information, so they just jumble it all together and throw it up on the page and call it a prologue. Ironically, most of the time I'm just confused and spend half the story trying to figure out how it all connects, whereas I would have been much more engaged if they could have woven it all into the plot, revealing important information as it became relevant. I've sworn on the keys of my Macbook to never use prologue.
STATUS: For a Monday, it was actually fairly quiet. Only one major issue to solve.
What’s playing on the iPod right now? RASBERRY BERET by Prince
I thought this a pertinent and timely entry in light of a lot of recent discussions I’ve seen in the comment section of agent blogs lately.
Megan’s debut hits shelves this week—all done with nary a networked connection.
I think every aspiring writer hears this message at least once: You don't have a hope of getting published unless you've got connections. I saw it pop up on message boards and websites as I was preparing GIVE UP THE GHOST for submission to agents, and couldn't help feeling nervous. After all, I'd never talked to an editor or an agent in my life. I didn't even live in the same country as most of them! And my close writer friends were currently unagented, so I didn't have a referral, either.
But I'd also read posts by authors talking about getting picked out of the slush pile, and agents mentioning their excitement at finding a gem in their inboxes, and that gave me hope. So instead of digging into my savings to fly off to every conference I could manage, I simply wrote a query letter, revised it, and started sending it out.
Three and a half years later, I have an agent, a publishing deal, and a book that just hit the shelves. I met Kristin in person for the first time this past May, two and a half years after we started working together.
I know now that there's nothing to worry about--people receive offers of representation and book deals without any prior connections all the time. I did, many of my writer friends did, and I've happily told this to writers who've said they're afraid they won't be able to find an agent or get published because they don't know anyone.
Unfortunately, I realized offering my experience isn't enough. Why should anyone believe me over those claiming that it's impossible? Maybe my case was just the exception.
Which is why, last month, I set out to collect solid data. 270 fiction authors from a variety of genres filled out a poll asking them about their experiences selling their first published novel. With the results now in, I say with assurance that the idea that you need connections to get published is nothing more than a myth.
62% of the agented authors who responded got the agent who sold their first book through cold querying--no prior meeting, no referral.
72% of the authors sold their first book to an editor they had no connection to (either by cold querying themselves, or submitting via their agent).
You can find my full discussion of the poll results here.
Can connections help you out? Of course! But if you don't have them, don't sweat it. I'm a Canadian author who signed with a Denver agent who sold to a New York editor without my having any prior connection to either of them, and that novel can be found right now in stores across both countries. If I can do it (along with more than a hundred other authors who answered the poll), there's no reason you can't, too.
25 Comments on Exploding The “Must Have Connections Myth”—Guest Blogger Megan Crewe, last added: 10/1/2009
This is a great post. One of my best friends, for years, is a long time Lit Agent. He has all the contacts anyone would ever need. But, we've NEVER mixed business with friendship.
I found my own agent through queries and constantly working on publishing credits. It wasn't easy, especially when one of your best friends is an agent (talk about weird Karma), but it was worth it.
Fantastic post. Very inspiring for all of us out here in aspiring-author-land who've been hearing all those horror stories and depressing tales about how knowing nobody gets you nowhere. Glad to know it's just a myth! :D
I was wrong on at least two counts: Apparently Kristin does read at least some of the comments left on her blog, and she does--at least in one case--handle ghost stories.
Why do I get this feeling there's already a form rejection letter stamped and ready to go and pinned to a voodoo doll wearing a white shirt and tie. It's this feeling I get.
To quote Micheal Keaton from the movie Night Shift: "I'm feeling a lot of love in this room...I don't know, it was there a minute ago."
Seriously though, I normally don't read YA, but I bought a copy of this book a few minutes ago from Amazon. Hardback and less than twelve bucks; not a bad deal. There's even some sample pages to read, and Megan Crewe, I must say, seems to write some pretty good prose. I can't vouch for the story yet, but I'm looking forward to reading it, maybe do a review at Amazon on it.
What's on my Itunes right now? What else? Sorry Seems to be the Hardest Word, Sir Elton John. God, I hate the taste of crow.
I have been saying this for years. I am delighted that Megan has proved it and delivered some stats as well. I shall use your stats at a presentation I'm giving on Saturday, crediting Megan of course.
Megan and Kristin, Great post! It's always nice to know you don't have to be a friend of a friend to get your foot in the door. Thanks for sharing the good news. I'm going to tweet this link on Twitter. ;-)
Great post and very encouraging. I'll second all the comments and the results because I too found my agent via an email query and she went on to sell my YA novel! Now, agents -- we want them to have connections! But that's the point -- you need an agent because they know the editors and they know how to find the perfect fit for your book.
Megan, your book looks great and I hope it hits the Kindle store soon!
Great post. I can second your sentiments too, as I'm yet another agented writer who had no connections before. My dear friend also had no connections when she snagged her agent—she's publishing in 2010. It does happen, rather frequently.
I'm constantly lurking on here and it looks like Give up the Ghost is what'll pull me out. In response to Gordon, I can vouch for the story. It's so good I want another helping! I'd love to find out more about Cass someday :)
Thanks for the great post Megan & Kristin. I personally didn't need the numbers, the story was enough.
I have felt bogged down with all the "branding, networking and industry savvy" an author needs now to get published. This is followed by the "marketing, selling and networking" the author needs to do after the sale.
Yes, I am aware that as an author I am a business. For me, it's a really simple business plan, the most basic structure.
Create an awesome product, present it professionally to customers. Follow up with another awesome product comparable to the first. And so I am now inspired again, to relax, and continue to create that awesome product. Because those with the connections, they will come... :)
Megan, congrats on the debut! And thanks for doing this, it's refreshing to see results like this.
Anonymous said, on 9/29/2009 8:47:00 AM
Congrats to Megan! I was in a bookstore this weekend and saw this book in the YA section, proudly faced out. Great job!
I wasn't aware that other people thought you needed connections in the industry -- any agent blog will tell you different. But who knows? Lots of people want to make excuses for their stuff not selling, and maybe that is an easy one.
I'm not using "it's who you know" as an excuse. The other published writers I know don't use it as an excuse, either. We keep on honing our craft and keep on querying.
It's discouraging, though, when we read about others getting their first manuscript published when they knew someone in publishing or knew someone who knew someone. We begin to wonder if it's all about east coast/west coast connections. I wouldn't blame agents and publishers for adopting this attitude. They've got to know that you can deliver the baby on time and that you are willing to edit your baby to boot. It's a business to them, and it's a huge risk dealing with an unknown quantity.
Congratulations to Megan. And thank you, too, for the encouraging words and giving us thus-far-unpublished-writers hope that we can get our fiction published without contacts.
And thank you to the agents and publishers who are willing to take a risk on the unknowns.
I'm currently in the submissions to editors stage having secured an agent for my first novel with no previous connections other than sending out lots of queries - yes, there were lots of rejections, but our agent actually showed an interest within a couple of days of all the queries going out, and we signed within a few weeks.
I'd say this gives a lot of hope, I just don't understand why you would think otherwise.
Thanks, Megan. As a fellow resident of the True North, I often find myself worrying that geographical isolation from the center of the publishing universe will make it more difficult for me to sell my work.
STATUS: I’m digging into a contract so now you will know what I’ll be doing for the next 2 hours….
What’s playing on the iPod right now? MORE THAN WORDS by Extreme
When I was at RWA, I did a workshop with my client Ally Carter. We were the only workshop at that conference that addressed anything in the Children’s realm. Let me tell you, the session was packed (to my surprise).
Anyway, the point of our workshop was this: people who want to write young adult always ask the wrong questions and we want to point that out and explain what the right question should be.
The best part of the workshop was the PowerPoint slides. We’d put up the wrong question on screen and you could feel the in-drawn breath of the entire audience. They had been thinking exactly that wrong question!
So sure enough, Sara got an email today from an aspiring writer asking one of those exact wrong questions. The person asked what is the right word count/length for his/her middle grade or young adult novel.
Gong. Wrong question.
The right question is this: how important is pacing in my middle grade or young adult novel?
See, it’s not about word count (look at the latter Harry Potter and Twilight books for goodness sake). Those books got some meat on them there bones—and it’s not just because they were hugely successful so therefore the author could use whatever length she wanted. It’s about pacing the novel so well, readers don’t mind length.
This September, I’ve got my first middle grade novel publishing. Helen Stringer’s SPELLBINDER is a whopping 372 pages long. And folks, this isn’t in larger print. It’s a long middle grade novel. But the trick is that it can’t feel like it when reading. The pacing has to be absolutely perfect. If it is, readers and editors will not quibble about the length. So don’t ask me how many words or pages your project needs to be because I can’t tell you. If you are on the low side (like under 50,000 words for YA or under 40,000 words for MG), you might not have developed your story enough. However, I don’t know that for sure until I read it. Maybe you have written the perfect 30,000 word MG novel. I have no idea.
But what I can reinforce is this: asking about word count or page length is definitely the wrong question.
I have never thought about writing for the YA market in this way. It's always been about fitting myself into the standards set up for aspiring authors, but it's good to know that there are ways to fit in without necessarily following all the rules.
I wish I could have been at RWA to find out all the wrong questions! :) Will you be giving this presentation at the Hawaii Writer Conference in a couple of weeks?
Thanks so much for the advice!
Anonymous said, on 8/20/2009 7:13:00 PM
Word count questions always crack me up. For example, I've never heard of under 40,000 in MG being on the low side! In my experience, 40,000 tends to be the max in MG! We must be reading different MG novels. :)
YES! Thank you! The other day someone told me they thought 50K was long for YA these days, on account of teenagers' short attention spans. I died a little inside. (Being a teenager, I can safely say we do not all have the attention span of a gold fish.)
I wasn't at RWA but I did print out your worksheets from their website! I have them in my laptop case right now, easily accessible.
Also to Becca Cooper - I feel you! When I was a teen I loved fat books. The bigger the better. I read fast and never wanted the book to end, so I always went straight for the long books.
My love of fat fantasy and trilogies and series started when I was in grade school and into high school. The longer the better. I liked to wallow in the worlds and stories. It's odd for me to think of short books as desirable.
this is good advice...except when I was shopping for agents with my YA novel, I read on many, many a website something akin to the following: "If your novel is not within [enter word range], it will not even be considered." It wasn't usually quite so harshly put (though sometimes it was), but the gist was the same.
So if a book's going to be judged by its word count, how will that agent ever know if it had meat or not?
I actually chopped 30K from my novel. And then found a publisher who promptly asked me to add 20K worth of scenes. But I wonder if they would've been interested if they'd seen the original word count, which is usually included in a query but not a sample.
Anonymous said, on 8/20/2009 11:49:00 PM
As far as middle grade The Spiderwick Chronicles are all about 15,000 words long while most of the Rowling’s are over 100,00. A story should be as long as it needs to be to tell the story. No more, no less.
Well, if Ms Stringer's book averages 250 words per page, then 372 pages would be about 93,000 words. Not a bad tally.
Anonymous said, on 8/21/2009 8:11:00 AM
Great blog post! I was actually discussing word count with a friend of mine, and on a certain website, most people are writing really short YA! These same people also said YA rarely accepts novellas, but I consider 45,000 to be a novella, which is the length most of them write YA at. My friend told me all of this, as her YA is 85,000, and I was quite shocked to find out my inklings about 45k being a novella were right!
Anonymous said, on 8/21/2009 8:15:00 AM
I'm sorry, Kristen, but that is an absolutely fair question to ask about word count. I don't write YA or MG but I know you all are EXTREMELY rigid about word count for *adult* novels - try, as a debut novelist, writing a book for grown-ups the size of a Harry Potter book! You're only allowed to do that if you have an MFA and have written an extremely long boring travelogue-style novel about vampire librarians. ;)
The word count of adult novels is something the writing books do NOT mention. I had to find out about this from blogsters like yourself and Miss Snark, and the reasons given are the same as you hear about teenagers - "People don't have the attention spans that they used to." I don't buy this for a minute as I did exactly what you people are always TELLING us to do, which is to "write what you'd want to read." Well, my fave novels are David Copperfield, Gone With The Wind, Quo Vadis, and "The Journeyer" (1000+ page novel about the travels of Marco Polo) so imagine my surprise when I found I was supposed to trim my first novel down to 100,000 words to satisfy some arbitrary whim. (It was still shorter than my faves.)
You are the ONLY literary agent I've seen so far who says size doesn't matter. MG, YA or GU (Grown UP).
Anonymous said, on 8/21/2009 9:06:00 AM
I don't think they are the wrong questions at all. Word length is important in YA because THATS what gives you the parameters of how to pace your novel.
If you think you've got 100k to play with as opposed to 45k, well that just changed the way you can approach writing and the amount of subplots, ect, you can include.
I don't see why that is a terrible question. In fact, only hacks don't worry about word count. They think there are no rules whatsoever and that's why you get people quyering with 230k epic fantasy novels in YA. Better to ask than to waste all that time on a first draft.
Definitely makes sense. Although I find pacing one of the hardest things when it comes to writing. I suppose I'll have to work on it a bit more.
Anonymous said, on 8/21/2009 10:13:00 AM
Unpubbed writers are hungry to know what publishers see as an acceptable word count range. Sure, there are exceptions, but to tell writers it's the "wrong question" is not helpful at all. (And frankly, makes me feel like I'm some idiot for wondering.) Explaining that under 40K for MG is on the low side, and over 100K for MG is higher than average--but could work if the story is strong and well-paced--is helpful.
I'm not sure I agree. With the amount of submissions these days, I think editors are looking for reasons to weed out their slush. Word count is something that's usually listed in the query, and if it seems way out of whack, that can't bode well for the writer. Especially a beginning writer with little or no credits, workshops or platform to their name.
Even if the pacing of a book is great, the editor may never get that far. In their mind, selling a 100,000 word MG could seem like too much of a long-shot, and not worth requesting a partial.
I also agree with anonymous 6:13who said 40,000 is on the long side for middle-grade. Because of Winn Dixie, A Crooked Kind of Perfect, Rule, Number the Stars, The Lemonade War...all under 30,000 words. I've always been told 30-40K was the average for MG.
Of course, there are books worth breaking every rule. The Tiger Rising is only about 18,000 words. But if you're Kate DiCamillo, I guess you're allowed to break some rules. ;)
Anonymous said, on 8/21/2009 7:59:00 PM
Kristen has stated that for her, word count doesn't matter. It's the story that counts. If someone is querying her that would be a good thing to keep in mind. Another agent might not feel the same way, and many state it on their blogs. The confusion comes in when the agent's site or the agency site has no blog and doesn't give any indication that if you send in a query with a word count under or over their requirements, it may (I said may) get you rejected right off the bat.
I won't name the agents, but others want writers to stay within the guidelines of word count, and there have even been agents who've put up what the numbers for each genre should be (basically that an author should be within the numbers posted.
This is also a subject that causes new authors to think agents aren't consistent in what they ask for. But having a spreadsheet with as much info you can get on that particular agent can help.
I never cease to be amazed at how you continually entertain and inform us through your daily blogs. Thank you.
Mariana said, on 8/21/2009 8:57:00 PM
This is interesting, especially because we see so many people warning about the appropriate word count for each genre. Some agents wouldn’t even bother requesting a partial to see the wonderful pacing the author has set for his/her novel because of the unusual word count. Isn't this true?
Anyway, I got curious to know which are the other right/wrong questions, and hope you'll share them somewhere in the future.
Ah, thanks for the great posts on publicity! Very educating.
It's just that for YOU it is the wrong question. But obviously you are not going to represent even a fraction of the people that read this blog or attend your workshops.
I had an A-list agent for my YA who said, point blank, I don't want contemporary YA to be over 240 pages in Times New Roman. Hell, that wasn't even a word count, that was a "I can feel if this is too long just by picking up the damn thing."
You have to realize writers crave consistancy within the agent/editor/publishing world. And they never get it. They are asking how long is too long because 15 other agents have all said, 45k for a YA is way too short for me, or 85k is way, way too long. And vice versa and every arbitrary number in between. Nevermind that Story of a Girl is 45k or Paper Towns 85k.
I read a post not long ago by an agent listed on the side of your blog who said "most" YA was around 80 or 85k. Huh? No way. 50 or 60k, maybe. But 85k? For non-fantasy? I immediately crossed that agent off my list. Sorry, but that is the blind leading the blind.
I bet lots of agents turned down this latest project of yours simply by looking at the word count listed in the query letter. So, what if YOU didn't pick it up? Might not be published at all, really. Great. Except not ever author can count on "maybe Kristin will like this."
No, a smart writer does ask about word count, and they ask a lot of agents, hoping to deduce some sort of median number they can use as a guide. It's not the wrong question.
After recently attending the PNWA conference, I realized that each agent seems to want something different. To some, word count is paramount. To others (like Ms. Nelson), it's relatively insignificant. Some like email queries; others prefer snail mail. The list of preferences goes on and on.
I suppose this is why so many agencies' websites suggest you do you homework before you solicit an agent. Make sure that agent represents what you write. I'm not going to change the way I write to suit a particular agent. Rather, I'm going to write what I love to write and find an agent who suits it. I think that pretty much sums things up, don't you?
Anonymous said, on 8/22/2009 9:39:00 AM
The word counts I read on blogs always perplex me. My last published novel (middle grades) was around 65,000 words-- but the book didn't look fat, not even in that jacket. I never think about word counts and always go over what people are saying is standard. People think too much about this.
I hope you'll be telling us some of your other questions!
I think word count can give you general guidelines when you're just starting out. But if that's your main concern--you've got work to do.
I also think a more important point is to know the guidelines for the people to whom you want to submit. If you want to keep your 300-word, Times New Roman font story, look for an agent that doesn't specify 200 words in Courier.
People, if you send an agent a query on a YA novel, and say something on the order of, "Per XYZ's stated guidelines, at whom I'm targeting this project, the length here is 45K words" or something to that effect...how can an agent quibble with this?
And, as much as I liked the Harry Potter books -- perfect pacing? Um. No. Book 7 could have been paced much differently and still told the story. IMO.
STATUS: Bursting at the seams. Got two bits of exciting news for one of my clients and it’s under gag. We’re not allowed to share yet. So I guess I’ll just tease all my blog readers with it instead.
What’s playing on the iPod right now? LET'S STAY TOGETHER by Al Green
This topic obviously resonated with quite a few people. In all honesty, I probably should have one of my clients do a guest blog about the topic of finances as a published author. Hopefully they’ll all just chime in on the comments section.
Okay, if you are a published author, here are some things that I recommend.
1. Find and then pay for a good tax accountant who can give you sound accounting advice for your writing business. You may start as a sole proprietor but as many of my authors have done, when real money starts coming in, it may pay (as in tax advantageous) to be an LLC or an S-corp instead.
When I say “pay for,” I mean it. It’s worth every dime to pay a CPA for his/her expertise. Be sure to ask around to other writers and get recommendations for a good one. Like all people in service industry, levels of expertise vary.
Gee, that’s true of agents as well.
2. When you have your contract, note the dates in your money management software for when you can expect to get paid. Then pad it by two months at least. I say this because things don’t always happen on time. The contract can take 2 to 3 months to negotiate and then it’s always another 6 weeks after signing for you to get paid. Foreign monies take even longer than that. As the agent, I always expect payment 6 months from when I’ve sent off the contract to my client for signing. It can take that long. For one client, the foreign publisher lost the contract and it took us a year to get paid. And that was even with me bugging them every other week for it.
You as the author might run into draft problems and not deliver the manuscript on time and so that d&a payment you were hoping to trigger might not happen until several months later. Trust me, this happens more often than not so keep that in mind.
So a couple of addendums to this: --If you are a debut and your career is young, don’t start by living off your writing. I think you’ll find yourself in a world of hurt if you do that. Writing money is gravy money. Not factored in as part of the monthly living expenses but it can pay for a great vacation or a down payment on a car or what have you. Personally, I say put all of it into a good interest CD that you can’t access for a year. That way you’re forced to ignore it for a while. But heck, I know that’s not always feasible. I’m just suggesting it.
--Don’t quit you day job until the back end royalties can pay for your daily living expenses without issue. Back end is the royalty money you earn once your advance has earned out. This does not include the advance you might earn for your next book because that’s an advanced that hasn’t earned out yet. And just an FYI, statistically speaking (and this is by no means exact), only about 10% of books actually earn out their advances. The good majority of them don’t. And here’s another interesting tidbit, if a book does earn out the advance, it can take 2 years or more before that happens. One of my authors just earned out (which is hugely exciting) but it took 4 years. Now you know why I emphasize back end royalties that pay your daily living expenses without an issue.
3. When you get your check, pay your taxes right then and there. Now some folks are really great money managers. If you are, then you can ignore this. However, I think the majority of us are not quite that anal and I’ve heard stories time and time again where authors don’t do this and find themselves in a world of hurt. Work with your tax accountant to find out what is the likely percentage that you’ll owe and don’t wait, just mail the dang thing to the IRS and tell yourself, this was never my money anyway. If you don’t have a tax accountant, a good rule of thumb is 20% of whatever the check was and send that in. If you’ve overpaid, you’ll get it refunded.
If you’re disciplined money manager, okay, stick the monies you owe the IRS into a high-interest bearing account and then only draw from that account to pay your quarterly taxes (April 15, June 15, Sept. 15, Jan. 15). Make some money on the interest at the very least. Now if your honest with yourself and know that you’ll fall into the trap of thinking the next advance will pay those taxes, don’t wait. Mail your check to the IRS the minute you get your check from the publisher or agent. I can’t force you to do this but I’m really encouraging it.
4. When you get your check, pay yourself first. What exactly does this mean? That means you put away money for retirement even before you pay your bills. If you’re under the salary cap, open yourself up a ROTH IRA (one of the best investing tools out there because when you retire you won’t be taxed on monies you withdraw from a ROTH because you will have already paid the taxes on it). Damn straight folks. And even if you are not good with numbers and investing, just go to Vanguard’s website and look at the ROTH IRA here. Sign up for an index fund that follows the S&P 500. Usually those are the safest with the least amount of crazy ups and downs.
Max it out. Pay in the full amount you are allowed to legally in any given year.
And folks, I’ve been investing for years but I’m no expert. My suggestion here is not to replace advice from a professional financial advisor but if you don’t know where to begin, maybe this will help you to get started.
I’ll also try and dig up the money management/investing titles of all the books I’ve read over the years. It might be a good reading list for you.
5. Open up a SEP (Simplified Employee Pension Plan). You’re a writer and you’re self-employed. This is a retirement vehicle for the self-employed and it allows you, percentage wise, to put the most money away for retirement than you can in an IRA.
6. If you are living off of your writing, create a budget with all your expenses and only pay yourself X amount a month and stick to that. That way you won’t suddenly run out of money and be really anxious for your next payment (see above—which might get delayed, or yikes a contract canceled, or a manuscript rejected and you have to pay back the advance). All grim scenarios but can be a reality.
7. Buy yourself something nice to remember your first check by. I know. Totally opposite of everything I’ve said above but your first check from your first book advance is special. Celebrate it.
Then do all of the above.
29 Comments on Writing as Business (Part 2), last added: 8/17/2009
I've owned my accounting practice for 26 years now and would like to clarify some tax ideas listed in your post.
Many businesses do not need to rush out and organize as an entity (LLC or S-Corp). However, an LLC has advantages over a straight S-Corp. An LLC can be treated as a single member (sole prop tax rules) or as an S-Corp. It is a simple process to elect either. You can be a single member LLC this year and a LLC treated as an S next year by election.
I think once you have a sale and before the any revenue reaches your paw, you need to be an LLC. Example: Assume you will have a $10,000 profit in year one. Not enough to justify an S-Corp, but as an LLC (single member) you can do a triple-net lease back of your home office. If reasonable rent for your home office for $500 per month, you have shifted $6,000 from Schedule C (earned income subject to the 15.3% self employment tax) to Schedule E (unearned rental income only subject to ordinary income tax), about a $900 tax savings per year.
If you have a larger profit, say $50,000+, it is time to elect to treat your LLC as an S-Corp. You are now an employee of the company and must pay all payroll taxes. The beauty of this beast is that you pay yourself a reasonable wage and the rest flows to your personal return without self-employment tax.
The risk of the S-Corp is that it is under assault by Congress. Rep. Rangle would like this loophole closed. Then, S-corps without employees would see no advantage from this strategy.
I agree, a tax professional will save you more than you ever pay her, just like having an agent pays.
I love it when people talk taxes. Makes my blood boil. A good boil. So I get off saving people money, sue me.
One final note: Do not take advice from a blog or a blog comment. Seek a tax pro. Comments on retirement info require further explanation.
And HSAs were not covered and are a valuable tool as well.
I dream of winning a million dollars and paying off my mortgage, credit card and student loan with one big check each. But its not going to happen, sigh, and I'm not going to hold out hope to sell as many books as Rowling or (what's that Twilight author's name again) which is probably what I'd need to do to see that much from writing. I guess I'll just have to work it away slowly like everyone else.
This remind me I'd better enter my recent expenses right away.
This year I've been much better at keeping track of my expenses than before, but I've been falling behind this month what with all Kristin's whip cracking getting me to work. :-)
I'd like to suggest that people find a SYSTEM that works for them, and use it, to record expenses, revenues, and schedules.
For writers, whose business is, after all, relatively simple, that system could be an accordion file, and some sort of calendar/contact program. (Do your schedule and call-backs/contacts on something computerized, though, so that you have the ease of searching.)
Next, get comfy with Excel. It's amazing what you can do to organize your approach, and to answer questions with that. And even simple businesses need to be able to add columns of numbers with accuracy, and to sort things based upon time, type, etc.
Oh, and don't forget back ups. Everything should be backed up at least twice, and I like a third.
Anonymous said, on 8/5/2009 11:12:00 PM
Kristin,
One more thing about the Roth IRA. And this is really just informational--I wouldn't encourage people to use this feature--but you can get the money back if you really really need it. Because you're not contributing pre-tax money to Roths, like with regular IRAs and 401ks, there is no penalty for withdrawing your original contribution (there is a penalty for withdrawing anything earned on that income).
So, people can feel good about paying themselves first, as well as knowing if the direst of emergencies occurred, they could still tap into that (though that is strongly discouraged).
All good advice, but you left out the part where a new author spends as much if not more than s/he earns for publicity, appearances at conferences, office supplies and equipment, etc., etc. I've sold through on both of my mass market series' first books, and I've made a profit, after expenses, only one year, and that was in the low four figures.
I'd be thrilled to be able to set up retirement funds or make investments. But most of us don't have that luxury.
My advice to anyone who hopes to one day be a full-time writer is to start saving money now. If you get a raise, keep living at your old standard and put the money into savings, and put any money you earn from writing into savings.
That way, you have a nice cushion before you quit the day job (or get laid off), and that makes waiting for publishers to send checks a lot less stressful. The publisher checks just replenish the nest egg.
In my case, the savings made it possible for me to freelance and work on my books instead of looking for another job when I got laid off seven years ago.
Thanks for the advice! I have to admit, I had to read this over a few times before I really got some of what you were talking about--I'm a bit slow when it comes to investment talk, even put as simply as you did!
Anonymous said, on 8/6/2009 10:56:00 AM
Also, in that list of things a writer should pay for is very often his/her health care. Depending on the State you live in, your age, and what kind of coverage you need, this can be pricey. I wouldn't necessarily say that setting up a HSA is the better way to go in health care as referenced by an earlier poster. When I looked into it, having a HSA didn't drop my monthly premium by all that much, and it wasn't worth it to set aside money in an account for tax purposes--there were other deductions I could take. I also wouldn't bank too much on interest in any account. Interest on accounts is not real high at the moment for Money markets, savings, etc.
Also, don't forget in some states, you need to pay a state business tax (WA State for example) once you make over a certain amount of money. (And it's not that high, I believe around 28K or so for WA State) So along with your federal tax, you will also be paying a state tax.
In other words...don't quit the day job writers...
Great advice! I tend to avoid thinking about taxes until January. Of course, I don't make enough (yet) to owe a huge chunk of money, but some day. . .
Anonymous said, on 8/6/2009 4:02:00 PM
Couple things:
Make sure your financial/tax advisor understands the quirks of taxes for writers.
And if you have a day job, boost your withholding to cover the added income. That way you don't have to start paying quarterly taxes until you are able to quit the day job, and it's one less thing to have to keep track of yourself. Several years back we had a lucrative contract deal. I went from withholding as Married with 2 dependents to single with none and had them withhold an additional $100/mo. No quarterly filing, just larger withholding (MUCH larger) and when April rolled around I had already more than paid what we owed. (And you don't have to pay your payroll department to adjust your withholding - the CPA will want to be paid for doing the quarterlies. They aren't difficult and you can easily do them yourself, but why not avoid it altogether if you can?) If you file a joint return and your spouse is the one with a "day job" then adjust his/her withholding for the same effect.
Anonymous said, on 8/6/2009 4:11:00 PM
Excellent post and thank you Keith Schroeder for adding your professional advice. Also, for those of you who are RWA members, Stephanie Bond gave an outstanding seminar at the DC meeting on managing your writing business(including advice on contracts). You can check out the RWA site and see about purchasing a copy of the tape.
My son, the author ([email protected]) forwarded this blog post to me. I've been doing his taxes "forever." I agree with much of what Keith wrote, but I'll provide some contrasting opinion:
An attorney may have other thoughts, but I think the use of an LLC for a person with no employees is overblown; it makes for a nice cachet, but doesn't really afford liability protection; a good attorney can always sue you the person in addition to your LLC.
Charging the LLC triple-net rent for an office in the home doesn't work because of Code Section 280A(c)(6). If the home is jointly owned, the spouse can rent his half to the writer, but the writer is limited to the normal office-in-home deductions.
I'd suggest using a 35% tax rate instead of 20% so as to include self-employment tax. Figure the 35% on income after deductible retirement contributions and business expenses. Whether you pay this through increased withholding from your day job or through estimated tax payments is immaterial.
If you really hit the big time, consider a Solo 401(k) plan instead of a SEP. You can sock a lot more away on lower income.
Don't rely on my ideas to avoid IRS penalties without getting the full skinny (IRS Circular 230 says I need to say this).
THANK YOU for dishing out the real deal. Writers (myself included) appreciate it. :)
Anonymous said, on 8/6/2009 6:59:00 PM
Thanks Kristen!
Anonymous said, on 8/6/2009 10:17:00 PM
In these days of steadily lowering advances...one wonders whether the publishing industry at large expects any author to earn enough to even be a nice addition to the day job.
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What a great post! I, too, am a tax accountant and financial writer. I agree with the above post that an LLC for 10,000 worth of income is probably overkill. LLCs cost money to organize, and it might not justify the tax savings, especially if the taxpayer is paying an attorney to set up the LLC.
I like parnerships (for small businesses) and C-Corps (for larger businesses) the best. Since most husbands and wives work together anyway, just forming a partnership can drop your audit rate from 3.9% all the way down to 1%. This is a huge percentage drop. That's because self-employed sole-proprietors get audited at a higher rate than any other business. A partnership return usually requires a field auditor and the IRS just doesn't have enough qualified people to do it.
I've been through about 10 audits this year already and they have all been awful. I definately feel that the auditors are feeling pressure this year to produce tax revenue. Anything you can do to lower audit risk is good.
Anonymous said, on 8/8/2009 11:59:00 PM
When querying for new books, if an author has been previously published and earned out the advance, is that something to mention in the letter, or would that be too mcubh info?
e.g.
About me: Previously published under name XYZ, TITLE, PUB, YEAR, advanced earned out.
Great advice, most writers focus on just getting published, but its important to realize that it doesn't end there and finances still need to be taken care of. Thanks for the helpful tips!
Wish this had been written out like this when I first signed my initial contract. What I was pleased to see was that my books earned back their advance and I was able to make some small repairs on house and car and make the holidays and birthdays nice for the kids. As a currently middle of the pack author, they'll be no living off my writing for awhile. But is is nice to have the advice spelled out so simply.
J. S. Hawley Author of 'Come With Me' & 'If You Were Mine'
Thank God i'm irish, and whenever i do get published i'll be exempt from taxation (as i'm living in ireland)but i've read that "I should point out that even if you are a bona fide artist living in Ireland--the Arts Council of Ireland makes the decisions on these things--you still have to pay taxes (usually) on income earned in the United States. . . you have to pay a flat 30 percent tax on royalties on books and whatnot sold in the U.S. "
Is this true? and would it be the same for every country?
STATUS: Today was pretty quiet because of the President’s Day holiday. I like that. I accomplish a lot and it isn’t even Saturday.
What’s playing on the iPod right now? FAT BOTTOMED GIRLS by Queen
For 2009, I’m pretty much on conference and contest hiatus. There’s just too much of a time crunch to take on extra tasks or travel but last year, I had promised to participate in a very interesting contest. When January rolled around and it was time to say ‘yes’ to the commitment, I was true to my word.
So over the weekend, I did the Secret Agent contest on the blog misssnarksfirstvictim. Obviously the secret it out but over the weekend, I was reading and commenting on 60 submitted first pages.
The question I had to answer was: “Am I Hooked? Why or why not.”
In other words, it was exactly like reading our slush pile but in this case, the submitters got feedback.
Yeah, I thought that might perk up your ears a bit. And it’s definitely worth popping over there to read the entries and my response to them. I signed each of my comments with the moniker secret agent.
Since I have the wonderful Sara, it’s been a while since I’ve read the slush slush (so to speak) and I’ll tell you right now that two problems rose to the surface on why I said “not hooked, wouldn’t read further” on some of the entries and I’m going to share those two things with my blog readers right now.
The two top problems were:
1. To much telling instead of showing the character in the scene (or too heavy a reliance on back story to jumpstart the story).
And
2. Not enough mastery of the craft—in other words, the writing needed to be tightened. Too much wordiness, overuse of adverbs, immediately explaining what was just revealed in dialogue, etc.
So if you are wondering how an agent reads and responds to an opening page, you might want to give that blog a look and read through the entries and the comments.
And here’s another interesting thing to note. When I did the contest, most of the the participants had already responded to each entry. I deliberately did not read any of the response comments until I had left my own comment first.
I was amazed at how often the things that tripped me up where spotted and noted by the author writers participating and reading the blog contest.
You want those folks for your critique group. I’m just saying….
15 Comments on Am I Hooked Or Not Hooked?, last added: 2/18/2009
The telling trap is the easiest trap for every writer to fall into. I should know...I slip into it a lot. But I'm getting better with each story that I write. Now if only that could be proven through publication....:D
Anonymous said, on 2/17/2009 1:08:00 AM
You know, I'm a small time agent - very limited list and each time I do tell authors this is the weakness that turned me off I am told 'what would I know?' I might not boast huge sales or big clients, but I still use the exact same filtering process as the big agents. Too often writers think because I am small that I will accept just about anything - wrong! Remember I still have to sell it to a publisher, one who does get material from the bigger agents.
I think I'm absolutely hooked on that blog now! Seriously, though, huge props for finding the time to read and critique all sixty. I'll be following along to see what else Authoress puts up.
...I still want to know why Bea dyed her hair purple...
Kristin, I thought of you as I opened my e-mail this morning. There was my usual e-mail from Borders since I'm a Rewards member. They listed 5 Perfect Book Club Picks and do you know which one was #2? Hotel on the Corner of Bitter and Sweet. Now, that is some seriously good marketing! Congrats again to you and Jamie Ford.;-)
Anonymous said, on 2/17/2009 10:23:00 AM
Most great literature is in the telling, not the showing. Just saying, as you would say.
Anon 9:23 There is always some telling in writing. I don't want a minute by minute account of a character's day. And you must be able to do that well. But often, the story flows better and is stronger when things are shown. Balance is key. Tell the parts that need to be told, and show everything else.
and the critiquers at MSFV are great! I've improved by leaps and bounds with their help!
Telling instead of showing, and too many adverbs makes me stop reading. I don't mind telling and then showing sometimes, but too many adverbs stop the pace.
I posted my thanks over on MSFV - but wanted to say it again. Your comments on the 60 entries was so educational. And the time you volunteered was very much appreciated. So, thanks, Kristen.
Janet - re-writing with a much better understanding :)
I posted my thanks over on MSFV, but wanted to say them again<:
Thanks again, Kristen!
*** Anonymous Agent, just wanted to say that I don't think that a lot of newbie writers know how messy their mss might be. Even if they belong to critique groups. Some people don't want to hear it from their critique partners. Others are like me and simply too close to the work itself and need to have the light brutally turned on time and again. :]
Ms. Nelson - thank you so very much for your gracious gift of time and your expertise.
I didn't enter this month, but I did critique a few. I'm happy to see two of my favorites made your cut! It's good to realize I'm honing my craft by reading other entries and the comments made.
I almost submitted to that contest, but the stipulation was "ready to submit to an agent" and I know I'm a bit away from that.
When I read the submissions and comments I wondered it you were the Secret Agent. Too much Pub Rants perhaps (is there such a thing?). Your feedback was consistent with the lessons learned on this blog and when I was lucky enough to be in one of your workshops.
That blog does offer a lot of good feedback from its readers.
I didn't enter either and my hope has been that you were not the SA until my MS was ready. Oh Well, too late for that. I will have to get your attention with a knock out query pitch.
Thanks for pointing this out; I've reading about the role of agent on your blog for a while now (with much interest)! I enjoyed the opportunity to read critically, to figure out what was right (or not-so-right, yet) about each entry, and then to predict whether the samples would get the nod. It was certainly eye opening.
I'm a regular at MSFV, but don't participate in the Secret Agent contests, because I don't have anything in query-shape yet.
What I love about these contests is that you get a great sense of what a slush pile really is, and what an agent goes through when reading all these first pages.
And then you actually see the reactions of the other readers, and the secret agent, which is insightful.
It's a real eye opener, and I hope it will help me produce something that will stand out between hundreds of other good submissions.
STATUS: One of my goals for this travel week was to get caught up on the fulls we have requested. The week is drawing to an end. I’d better hop to it!
What’s playing on the iPod right now? SOS by Rihanna
You know I almost never respond to questions in the comment section but one astute reader asked a question that really got me thinking. Have I ever asked for a full manuscript, started to fall in love, and then had the manuscript jump the shark halfway or three quarters of the way through the full?
The answer is yes. In fact, that should be in capital letters-- YES. It doesn’t happen often but when it does, it can be a huge sad moment.
It’s one reason why agents always read until the end—even if they are sure they love the voice, the plot, and what have you. There really is such a thing as a manuscript suddenly taking a sharp left turn and leaving the agent stunned and confused.
What’s interesting though is this. I don’t keep a running track record but I do know of a few authors whose first projects I read, really liked, had this happened so I ultimately passed on that novel who then went on to get agented (and sold) with a later manuscript. Sometimes it’s just that last little kernel of knowledge that the author needed to learn about plotting before having it all click on a more mature manuscript.
In fact, one of the authors I have right now is a writer I passed on originally for her first manuscript (not exactly for this reason but for something close). I then took her on for her second novel and sold it at auction.
So when I see it, I always tell the writer that the manuscript diverged too suddenly for me (and why) but we see talent here and would be open to seeing future stuff.
Sometimes they take us up on it. Sometimes they end up represented by an agent friend (which is how I ended up knowing about it). Otherwise I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t remember as I don’t keep track.
13 Comments on Can A Manuscript Jump The Shark?, last added: 10/18/2008
Ms. Nelson, Was it more beneficial (in your opinion) to the career of the writer who got you to rep something more mature after you rejected the shark-jumper, or for the writer who took that same shark-jumper to a friend of yours and got it sold?
PS - If you have seen the newest Indiana Jones, you might find it interesting to note that "Jumping the Shark" has now found a synonymous phrase: "Nuking the Fridge."
Chris Bates said, on 10/17/2008 6:27:00 AM
This is an interesting topic.
In my view - uneducated as it is - you are talking about two very different things - one being writing style, the other being plotting and the mechanics of story.
An author that has both talents is someone to be reckoned with.
Many scribblers don't have these two traits. Which is why editors, agents, publishers and pain-in-the-ass, know-it-all friends are worth their weight in royalty checks.
Fiction - if this is fiction we are talking about - is a complicated recipe that can be, at times, served half-baked with coincidence and the inevitable deus ex machina or overcooked resulting in unrealistic scenes and cringe-worthy melodrama.
Often a writer blasts away at the story from the get go with such force because they have a tale that 'just needs to be told'. The reader, for a moment, is taken on a great ride ... only to discover the quagmire that is 'undisciplined writing' mid-story.
All passion, no love.
In such stories the reader is left feeling that they have been taken for an entirely different ride. One that robbed them of 25 bucks.
Of course, that doesn't mean they are crap writers - they just need guidance. Good film directors are a great example of this. They re-mold a blueprint screenplay into something better ... except when they stuff it up!
My point? Did I have one?!
Authors live and breathe their fictional worlds. Often we need someone to love our style but we need advice to shape our story.
Many of us just rush right in a write without any clear destination to aim for.
One thing I learnt through my very short and very unsuccessful TV scriptwriting career was that writers should stop being so friggin' precious about words, and be far more willing to embrace plot/structure criticism.
Does any of that make sense?
Or is it just me that thinks that I know everything?! :)
I know you don't answer comments here, but perhaps one of your esteemed readers will. I'll be honest and say I'm not sure what this means. In terms of TV shows I know what jumping the shark means - but in a literary way? Not so clear to me. Anyone want to help a writer who hasn't had enough coffee this morning? :) When there is something I shouldn't do, I want to understand what it is!
I think some examples of this problem slip past both agents and editors. I can't tell you how many books I've read in which I loved almost all of it--the voice, the plot, the characters--and then the end just fell on its face, as though the author had run out of steam. I understand the difficulty, but I still regret it.
It doesn't surprise me that this sort of thing happens. I've heard fellow writers talk about getting the beginnings of their first manuscripts ready - just polishing up those first two or three chapters that go with a partial - then submitting them. I believe the thinking is that they'll be able to revise the rest of the manuscript while their partial is out.
That's a dangerous way to play the game. The agent could get to your submission faster than you're counting on, your own personal life could interrupt your writing schedule, or revisions could take longer than you anticipated. Even worse, in the midst of revising the end of your novel you could discover that you need to change something in the section the agent has already read.
Amy - For me, a book jumps the shark as soon as the story disregards the rules of its universe. For instance, the author gives you a main character who is a librarian, has only ever been a librarian, and plans to die a librarian. He has never shown interest in anything but shelves and shelves of books. Then, at the climax of the book, the author suddenly reveals that this dude is a blackbelt in karate -- which he uses to vanquish a foe -- but the author gave you no clues to these skills beforehand. The shark-jump always comes out of left field and makes you say, "What?! Since when?"
Well, this is one of those really home-hitting sort of dicussions. I'm guessing that if I committed the sin of a query at this stage in my self-education, something very like this would occur.
I, too, would like an explanation from someone on the finer meaning of "jump the shark" - but if it's anything like "nuke the fridge" I'm guessing a baldly unlikely escape out of a tight spot you've written your character into.
Thanks Kristen! I think I knew this was the answer when I asked, but now that you've confirmed it I realize, in retrospect, the question materialized out of anxiety. I finally started letting some friends read the first chapter of my novel and the feedback has been very good. This energized me greatly but there appears to be a backlash: "What if they think the ending sucks?" Ah, paranoia.
one example I can think of is "STRANGERS IN A STRANGE LAND" by Robert Heinlein. the first part of the book was awesome, sci-fi and fun.
then the 2nd part of the book went downhill, focused on sex and cults. I became angry, furious and I read the book to the very ending, hoping for a shift back to sci-fi, but nope. That was the only time a book REALLY pissed me off and broke my heart. blimey!
Amy - one of my fantasy manuscripts jumped the shark in the last part. It was complex and (I thought) tightly plotted in the first two parts, with a tense, charged romance and everything leading up to a climactic battle.
In the third part, the peotagonists fought the climactic battle. They pounded at a medieval city with siege engines, the gates went down, they charged in and defeated their enemies. That was a linear and simplistic conclusion, and my agent pointed it out as a problem. It didn't help that the protagonists also got together in part 2, taking all the sexual tension out of the story as well. So... kind of a flat ending.
I rewrote it so that the protags had a vicious argument at the end of part 2 and therefore didn't communicate before the battle, which contributed to their losing it. They do win, eventually, but it's nowhere near easy for them. I'm waiting to see what my agent thinks.
In very general terms, Jumping the Shark is when the plot(or character) takes such a rediculous/unexpected/unbelievable/inconsistant/out of character turn, there is no going back. Everything was great, then X happened and it all fell apart.
Fonzie jumping the shark Indy surviving a nuclear blast in a fridge Greedo shooting first etc.
STATUS: As much as I enjoyed Worldcon (the SFWA and TOR party were quite fun on Friday), I must say I’m just relieved to be sitting here alone in my office just working away.
What’s playing on the iPod right now? FOR ONCE IN MY LIFE by Michael Bublé
On Saturday, I attended a panel entitled “Writing 101: Authors Take Questions from the Audience.”
Now this may be an odd panel for an agent to attend (being that I’m not an author) but I do think it’s valuable to hear what established authors have to say to aspiring writers. At the very least, it’s going to be a healthy reminder to me of what struggling writers face out there in the trenches.
Besides, I was just interested in hearing what war stories Harry Turtledove, Kate Elliott (I’m a big fan) and Kay Kenyon had to share.
It was a good panel and I’m glad to have attended. I think the best pearls of wisdom that I gleamed from their talk are these two:
1. All writers have felt like they’ve been kicked to the curb at some point in their career (be it trying to land an agent, accessing an editor at a publishing house, or sifting through the myriad of rejections). You are not alone and the best you can do is to keep writing because that’s what writers do. All established authors have at least one manuscript that will never see the light of day. Many have several.
2. Wherever you are now in your writing is not where you will always be. These established authors said that they couldn’t reread their first published novels because ack, they are so much better now; they can hardly believe that such dreck actually was published (my take: even established authors are hard on themselves!). You will learn and grow as a writer and your rejections today might simply be a memory tomorrow.
Good advice I think.
13 Comments on What Established Authors Have To Say, last added: 8/13/2008
Remembering that published authors have all felt kicked to the curb helps us brace ourselves for the moment when we do, so we'll be ready to persist! Thanks for posting this!
Wherever you are now in your writing is not where you will always be. These established authors said that they couldn’t reread their first published novels because ack, they are so much better now; they can hardly believe that such dreck actually was published (my take: even established authors are hard on themselves!). You will learn and grow as a writer and your rejections today might simply be a memory tomorrow.
This is true to me all ready, and I don't have anything published. My first novel...ick. I can't even look at it. I catch glimpses of it and shudder and think, "I can't believe I WROTE that!"
Thanks for the advice! Sometimes it's hard to remember that even the greates authors were once struggling.
I agree with number two. I know I am a WAY better writer now than I was even six months ago. What I thought was stellar then makes me want to yak when I read it now! My question is, is there ever a point when you feel like you are 'good'?
This is so true! Each time I heard this I was heartened the same way new writers are heartened when I talk about my 70+ rejections before publication. Perseverance is the key as they say.
What’s playing on the iPod right now? WHEN YOU COME by Crowded House
Let’s round off this week by focusing on one more mistake Sara and I have been seeing lately. We call it the opening-chapter-back-story-info-dump.
That pretty much sums it up.
But if you want more details, this is when writers feel like they can’t begin their story until the readers know and understand the back story, or the history of the character who opens the novel, or how the world works (if this is SF or fantasy). So, the opening chapter usually has nothing to do with the direction of the rest of the novel but the writer hasn’t mastered the ability to integrate it seamlessly as the real-time story unfolds.
The writing is almost always explanation (telling instead of showing) with very little dialogue, scene action, or character development.
Auto NO response every time.
This is often why prologues don’t work.
And don’t be fooled, the chapter back story info dump is sometimes disguised by coming in chapter 2 or chapter 3 but can be characterized by many pages where the above telling versus showing happens at the expense of dialogue, plot, character, or scenes to move the story forward.
So don’t just breathe a sigh of relief if you’ve checked your opening chapters and it’s not there. The large info dump chunk can sneak in later. If the chunk comes later and the rest of the novel is decent until then, we agents will allow some wiggle room because that issue can be easily edited if it’s just a one time snafu. I find that if this problem exists though, many of the other beginning writer mistakes are present as well.
Have a happy editing weekend!
35 Comments on Beginning Writer Mistake (Take 4), last added: 7/30/2008
I do reveal a bit of my MC's backstory in the first chapter, although I feel it is rather well-integrated and more showing than telling. I eliminated most of the straight explanation/infodump in my last round of revision. Still, in light of this post, I am going to go back and double-(triple-, quadruple-)check this, just in case.
You are so right! Even when we know better, I think we writers do this. We get tunnel vision and think there's just no way to start other than that way. Wrong! I just pulled an older manuscript from file. Love the reincarnation story. Got good responses but no sale. I completely excised pages 5-60 because I suspect that's the problem. Will insert slivers of those scenes. Somehow.
Shelley said, on 7/18/2008 3:59:00 PM
One thing I don't remember seeing you write about is good flash back technique. I think this is different than back story info dump as it is done in many of the novels I love, and as you said, integrated seemlessly.
One of the things I've read is to treat your flash backs as real time, with as much dialogue and action as you would put in the present story. I would love to hear your thoughts on this.
Anonymous said, on 7/18/2008 4:42:00 PM
Wow. This is cool. I definitely need to clean up novel this weekend--before I submit it to you. I do have a flashback scene in chapter 4, but not only does it move the story forward, but it itself MOVES. Thanks for this info, and for the great entries this week. The question is, after a week like this one, how will you dazzle us next week??
Anonymous said, on 7/18/2008 4:43:00 PM
Again Kristin comes through!! Funny how we always pick this up when reading and never while we are writing it. As I have said before, I need discipline. It is so hard to avoid falling into the easy chair and telling all these "important" details. Naturally, If I were a better writer I would remember to start the story at the beginning. That way, I would never have to go back and fill in the beginning later. As a reader, I find it frustrating when a perfectly good story stops right in the middle or the beginning - suspending time - just to let me know that the characters met in college. If that were something so important for me to know, I would have learned it already. If it doesn't become relevant until later, then there will be an appropriate time later in the story to time shift back to college for a paragraph or ten. I hate to read something where the story has to stop moving to catch me up on details. Every novel is about 90 minutes worth of story and 10 hours of background, description, character development, observation, philosophy .. etc. The good ones make it all blend together so you don't notice. That is what makes a rich story.
My MC doesn't make it on stage until Chapter 2 so I feel relatively safe. The book opens with someone being rescued and no one has the time for extra chatter, so I feel safe there.
I am concerned about what is considered no-no info-dump DL. The book is about a murder case and there are conversations where the detective has to question people. I show that on-screen. I also have the detective getting reprimanded and reminded of a case that went baddly just recently.
Is that a terrible bad thing that I ought to edit out or is it appropriate because it's likely to happen during the course of the investigation?
I think the info dump is a particular hazard in science fiction and even more so in fantasy. When you spend all that time world building, and so much of the current action relates to the long and glorious (or blood-soaked) history of this world of yours, it's hard not to put in long explanations to make certain that the reader, dumped into your strange land, understands as much about it as the inhabitants do.
Prologues, prefaces, and "As you know, Bob..." scenes are all ways writers have tried to explain the world to their readers with varying degrees of success. My current WIP once had a preface AND a prologue, both of which I jettisoned, then another attempt at a prologue which was much better, but I still dumped in favor of an opening scene with the MC in action. I've also been hacking out long internal monologues, dream sequences, and I'm currently trimming the dialogue to take out long "talking head" scenes which are just backstory in disguise.
Emily H said, on 7/18/2008 7:44:00 PM
Thanks for doing these postings about writer mistakes! They're very helpful and kind of you to point out.
I'm really enjoying this series of posts, Kristin!
A good alternative to the back-story overload prologue would be (dare I say it) Paolini's "Eragon." His prologue plunges you into the middle of action, while revealing more about the world in which Eragon lives. Stephenie Meyer also has her thing with Bella's "death scene" (always reoccuring) greeting the reader on the first page.
Anonymous said, on 7/18/2008 9:10:00 PM
I, as a reader and a writer, HATE< HATE, HATE this. Not only does it make the reading depressing when you have pages of dumped baggage, but it assumes that the reader is dumb and won't pick up character clues along the way. Good writers use action and dialogue to shape the character, not excessive narrative. It comes off to the reader like a character sketch, not an escapist pleasure. And, after all, isn't it better to come to know a character in your own way, with your own frame, rather than to be told all about him/her? If I wanted that, I'd just rent a movie.
Anonymous said, on 7/18/2008 9:13:00 PM
And yet many great novels do exactly that. In fact, that's usually the part of the book that makes me decide whether or not to keep reading.
Nothing is quite as tiresome as jumping into conflict too quickly (except maybe not getting to it quickly enough). Books are not screenplays.
This is a lesson that I'm happy to have learned early on. My first two stories definitely fell into the trap of not starting the story in the right place. I'd start it in the "normal" world of the characters intsead of at the instant where "normal" is no longer the world they live in.
Anymore I work very hard to dribble only the necessary backstory or world in as its needed.
Great mistake to point out and thank you for the reminder.
I know what you're talking about. Too often I read backstories that I feel I have to wade my way through to get to the good stuff, or reminiscent conversations that state what should be the obvious.
Sometimes a little bit of backstory is necessary, though. The backstory is essential to my novel, and it is one of the first things I address. It is also complicated enough that introducing it by integrating hints would only confuse readers. Because of this, and because my book is geared toward a younger audience, do you think some first-chapter backstory is okay, as long as I keep it short, sweet, and compelling?
Anonymous said, on 7/19/2008 1:47:00 AM
Just wanted to say thank you for this week of posts! They're incredibly useful.
New to your blog, Kristin. Great information here, thanks for sharing!
If anything, I put my characters "on stage" and let them go with too little author explanation/intrusion. My work reads almost like: here are my characters, here's their story. You figure it out. LOL
On the downside, it gives my stories almost a whispery voice. Is this a bad thing, making my stories too "thin"? Do you read the opposite as well, not enough backstory/info dump/author explanation?
Any and all opinions welcome. Thanks for this great site!
Amy Nathan said, on 7/19/2008 8:48:00 AM
It's a matter of propriety I think. We want the backstory in there because we invented it - and my oh my - aren't we so clever and everyone must know right away.
I think the key is making sure the backstory is pivotal to not only understand the character(s) but moving the story forward.
I recently read a book by a best-selling author -- and about halfway through the book there were a few pages of backstory which did explain some things about the main character. For the rest of the book I was expecting that backstory to come into play, to see those characters pop into a scene and for something to be relevant. Even when I finished the book I wondered why that part was even in there.
I'm always glad to have something drawn out for me, like in these posts. I have substantial backstory in one of my chapters, and I'm not editing it out now, but when I go back through my entire manuscript I will be much more keenly aware if it is necessary -- or if all of it is necessary.
Thanks, Kristin. You are making our jobs harder -- and no better way to make sure we turn out better books!!! :)
One of my profs had a hilarious example line of dialogue that does a similar back-story thing. It went sort of like this:
"So, Bill, now that you've finally finished your prison sentence and returned to your home town, do you think you'll be able to avoid the temptations that landed you in jail in the first place? A lot of thieves are repeat offenders, you know."
I remember reading lots of first-chapter lines like this when I was into serial mysteries as a kid.
My current novel has a prologue. It has to have it as what happened 1200 years ago is a major deal in the book, however, the prologue is written current to the time and then chapter one going forward is written current to today's time.
I can honestly say I hope to never need a prologue again. Since my other books haven't had the need for one I learned while writing this one, I'm so not a big fan of them. :)
Anonymous said, on 7/19/2008 12:12:00 PM
Thank you for such an educational blog. I'll definitely be back for more.
I've done this, just not in prologues, 'cause I've never written a prologue. Worse, I've seen it done in published work. That's why I skip prologues if there's one in the story. They rarely, if ever, give information that couldn't be seamlessly integrated into chapter one, given a little planning and a lot of hard work.
Maybe some of the pubbed authors are no longer willing to go this distance? I don't know.
Prologues seem to be more the thing in historical fiction, I've noticed. Doesn't matter. As a reader, I skip 'em anyway.
MC, I would suggest if your main character doesn't come onstage 'til chapter two, you might have inadvertently written a prologue. Conventional wisdom states your mains should be in the story right from the get-go.
I love reading some of those older novels where the introduction sets forth, in rich concise langauge, the time and setting in which the story is going to take place.
It's like making the perfect griddlecake. You set the ingredients in order on the counter and raise the curtain so that morning light falls on it all; you sift flour into the bowl; pour so gently the milk. Then you heft chocolate chips or pineapple pieces in your hand and find the perfect weight; you distribute them amongst the mixture. And last, there are towers of whipped egg white which you fold in with great respect to their fragility.
But flames have been kissing the belly of the griddle all this time, and suddenly it's sizzling. With your last reserve of discipline you pour the batter on in flawless circles. And that's when things really get hot. (Don't forget to finish off with some sweet, sweet syrup you've kept simmering on the side all this time.)
Any procedure more hurried merely reinforces the proverbial flatness of the pancake. And if I may say it, pancakes are not the only items that tend to fall flat.
I fear that this insistence on bathing one's beginining in flames and trying to find time to mix the batter in hurried, unnoticed steps along the way is a symptom of the tyranny of Film. I think it's a practice that will eventually die out. What's truly tasteless is to disguise introductory information as something else.
I have given myself the 'rule' that I am not allowed under any circumstances to reveal back story in the first three chapters. When you give yourself a rule like that and stick to it, it's amazing how much more interesting your story gets right off the bat.
In my first drafts I usually have a few info dump scenes that get excised during the edit. Sometimes I just have to let myself do that in order to move the story forward and get to the next exciting thing. It's in my head, taking up space, and it needs to get left somewhere. But eventually it gets cut or turned into a dialogue scene or something else. The amount of background gets chopped into just a few important bits.
I've read books by even the best authors who do the first chapter info dump, and I *hate* it. Wish editors would make them cut it out, no matter who they are.
Anonymous said, on 7/19/2008 8:42:00 PM
Your blog this past week has been most insightful. It really is great of you to give us writers (new and old) advice on what will propel us forward.
However, in the event that there may be a writer who, after reading your posts this past week, may feel completely lost because now they think their manuscript is guilty of all these 'mistakes' and will never garner an audience, I feel it necessary to say the following:
Upon reading about all of these 'mistakes', I decided to read some already published works to see if they existed in any....what I found is that some bestsellers (I'm talking millions of copies here), did in fact fall into the traps you spoke of...and yet, the story still worked.
As writers, it is always important to improve our craft, but it is equally important to stay true to the story that is in our heads. Because the most important voice to listen to is not the one telling you about all the rules you should be following, it is the voice(s) of your character(s)...the one that is weaving the story inside of you, begging you to tell it.
This is the voice that the reader will connect to....and this is the voice that I would hope agents would try to connect to as well (despite a little telling instead of showing), for not doing so may cause them to pass on some really incredible stories.
This is my biggest pet-peeve with novels. Sciencefiction and fantasy are the biggest culprits.
I don't need to read three pages of explanations where numerous names and dates and gods and events are thrown at me because at the beginning, I just don't care about the characters or the story. And furthermore, chances are i'll simply forgot.
Trust that we, the readers, are intelligent enough to figure it out as we go along!
Anonymous said, on 7/21/2008 12:34:00 PM
If I have to look too hard to find out these writing 'mistakes', I'm not enjoying the story and I have no busy reading the book. You can make a whole bunch of 'mistakes' but if you are entertaining, they aren't 'mistakes' to me.
Anonymous said, on 7/21/2008 5:33:00 PM
The Da Vinci Code is a shining example of how to avoid info dump. I think anyone would agree that there is a LOT of info given in the book, however, it's doled out while the characters are on the run (with a couple of exceptions). He almost never has them just sitting around discussing htings, they are solving probvlems while escaping, running, driving, flying--moving somehow.
Everything you need to know about the characters is meted out as the story unfolds--there's never any exposition on their background.
IMO, reading books such as these is a much better education than trying to learn from a blog. I mean, the answer is right there in the pasges of those published best-sellers--read them!
"Upon reading about all of these 'mistakes', I decided to read some already published works to see if they existed in any....what I found is that some bestsellers (I'm talking millions of copies here), did in fact fall into the traps you spoke of...and yet, the story still worked."
The problem is that most of these books probably had very exciting, compelling stories and characters. The creators are skilled writers who seem to be able to weave these things in without throwing a reader out of the story. We don't notice these things as much when we're too busy watching something else.
As a new writer, I'm not sure we can bank on people instantly falling in love with us enough to forgive.
I worried a lot about something that wasn't brought up, but is probably also a problem. I have multiple POV characters. Due to the nature of the story, the reader is getting the events from different POVs. It isn't bad for some people, but I'm sure it will be the kiss of death to others. I just have to hope the characters and story are compelling enough to grab the reader and not let go.
Aside from that, I am trying very hard not to cross the line with the writing.
In the sci-fi story I'm working on, the first chapter focuses on the main character's mother just when she learned she's pregnant. By the end of the second chapter she'll die and the main character will be adopted.
Some have told me this should be a prologue and the main character should always start the story. What's your take?
So you mean to tell me that the first four chapters of my novel are useless?
What if it's from the narrators POV? Does this rule still apply?
Anonymous said, on 7/28/2008 10:39:00 AM
I appreciate this post, after reading it I took a look at my first chapter and realized my first two graphs were basically backstory. I cut them and sent out a test query to a top agent (who doesn't even accept unsolicited queries). The result: full manuscript requested. Thank you, Ms. Nelson.
STATUS: I've got a lot of phone calls to do to start my day.
What’s playing on the iPod right now? 50 WAYS TO LEAVE YOUR LOVER by Simon & Garfunkel
This one is certainly a lesser evil and in comparison to some of the other writer mistakes we’ve talked about this week, low on the totem pole. But I do think it’s worth mentioning although I’m pretty sure I’ve already discussed this at least once on my blog.
The overdone title.
A couple of thoughts to keep in mind:
1. Sometimes simple works—and works really well. (TWILIGHT for example). Don’t make a title more complicated then you need.
My client Jenny O’Connell has a great example of this with her two current back-to-back releases from MTV/Pocket Books: LOCAL GIRLS and RICH BOYS.
My sense is that you can probably figure out the direction of the story just from the titles. The first book, Local Girls, is about two teens who have grown up on island of Martha’s Vineyard. They are the local girls until one teen’s mother gets remarried to a rich tourist and takes the family from the island to Boston. The story takes place the next summer where the once local girl has returned as a tourist and will the friendship survive?
Rich Boys is, yep, you got it. A local girl hired to babysit a wealthy summer family’s little girl becomes entangled with the wealthy family’s older son who, after a disastrous first year of college, is bent on wreaking havoc.
Simple but grabby.
2. Avoid the pithy title with the long, rambling subtitle. I cannot tell you how often I see this. The title can be something like (and I’m making this up off the top of my head), The Survivor Chronicles (which could be a rather cool title if you think about it!). And then the author ruins it with the lengthy subtitle such as (and yes, this is an exaggeration)—a memoir about a young abused woman coming of age, discovering her bi-polarism, embracing her sexuality and finally triumphing against all odds.
Heck, I don’t need to read the book anymore…And yes, unfortunately, I do recognize that the professionals in the publishing industry are often guilty of this but as writers, there is no need for you to fall into this trap.
3. In general, avoid titles that might be hard to pronounce or difficult to spell.
4. To Be a Long Title or Not to Be a Long title? That is the question. And the answer is that it depends.
AND THEN WE CAME TO THE END works because as readers, we totally get it and the longer title is memorable.
Same with I’D TELL YOU I LOVE YOU BUT THEN I’D HAVE TO KILL YOU. We’ve all used a similar phrase often so the longer title works.
But then you have the power of the short title such as Brooke Taylor’s UNDONE.
This title can be read in so many ways. It leaves a question in the reader’s mind. What is undone? Does it mean incomplete? Or, to come undone? In this case, it’s the first question. What is left undone is the 5 wishes of a teen girl who dies and her best friend, Serena, decides to complete the list and in doing so, discovers who she really is.
The short title can be evocative.
And speaking of short titles and writer mistakes, you might want to check out this soon-to-be released slim volume called HOW FICTION WORKS by James Wood. Funny, he's tackling all the issues that I've just talked about on this blog. Powerful stuff.
29 Comments on Titles: Another Writer Mistake?, last added: 7/30/2008
So how do you feel about numbers? My WIE is titled 10-41 DAVID. The numbers are from the 10 code of Mason County and mean 'beginning tour of duty'. As this is David's first mystery, I thought it appropriate.
Coming up with titles is one of my favorite parts of writing, so I was glad to see this post! I tend to prefer the short and simple titles that evoke an atmosphere or make you question the meaning. (TWILIGHT and UNDONE are great examples. I've already read TWILIGHT, but I am more interested in UNDONE now.)
I've experienced the pros and cons of a long title first hand.
On one hand, no one forgets the title of my first book, "A Connecticut Fashionista in King Arthur's Court" and it usually gets a laugh when people see/hear it.
On the other, it's a definite mouthful at parties when people ask, "So, what have you written?"
I love the simple title "UNDONE." I have major cover envy, too. :)
It's tricky -- and yes, it's kind of out of our hands once an editor has acquired the MS -- but I love the questions surrounding titles: how much is enough? how much is too much or too little? does it give away too much? does it mislead? and of course: has it already been used?
(Yeah, I know: you can't copyright-protect titles. I don't think your book's chances will be helped much, though, by calling it The Da Vinci Code.)
And have you all noticed that as hard, as excruciatingly hard it is to write a one-page synopsis of a 75K+-word book, it's much more fun to "write" a simple title for it?
Now my problem is I'm not good with coming up with titles, sure I'll slog through 90,000 words and edit/redraft four or five times, but I've got no clue as to titles. So how do you boil down a story into one or two words? And do they have to really be the central theme of the story? I'm still trying to figure it all out.
Anonymous said, on 7/17/2008 2:46:00 PM
And then you have titles that have already been taken - Stone Cold by both Robert Parker and Robert Baldacci ... and your example of How Fiction Works. There's another book written by Oakley Hall. How confusing is that?
Anonymous said, on 7/17/2008 4:16:00 PM
Since the label here is passing on sample pages, does that mean you'd pass because of a bad title? I'm not thinking so but, I had to ask.
I'm glad to read this. I have a simple and accurate title, but I added a colon with a long rambling sentence after it.
I'll keep it simple. Thanks for the reminder.
Anonymous said, on 7/17/2008 5:12:00 PM
Thanks for this week's entries. So far, they've all dazzled. Please continue in this vein, especially the Writers' Most Common Mistakes theme. It's all worth gold dust to me--and many others, I'm sure.
The suspense novel I wrote long ago was called DREAM CATCHER. Someone who shall not be named penned a book by the same name so I changed it to DANCING HORSES. It's a book about rodeo and cutting horses and a convoluted plot about insurance scams and murder. Cutting horses have a move they make that is called "dancing," so DANCING HORSES seemed appropriate and I like it.
My present wip isn't so easy. I'm calling it PALADIN'S PRIDE for now, but I have no illusions about that being the final title. That's from a line in the book, but I'm not married to it.
Maybe I'll call it HORSE GIRL.
I may hold a contest to name that book when I start submitting.
Make sure the title is easy to remember as well...had a title one which no one could remember correctly when making reference to it.
Thankfully, it's since been changed.
Anonymous said, on 7/17/2008 6:07:00 PM
Oh, titles are one of my favorite parts about writing. :-) I LOVE coming up with a good title. I've had the one word titles:
SHATTERED (a girl in an abusive relationship)
YESTERDAY (a girl trying to discover what happened at yesterday's party as her friend has turned up missing, but the girl is still in the foggy haze of too much drinking and can't remember the events of yesterday)
Or the longer titles: PRADA & PREJUDICE or GETTING CAUGHT.
Fortunately, titles aren't copyrighted. So you could call a third novel STONE COLD and get away with it.
I like my one-word titles best, but then I sat down to write another one, and it started shrieking that its title had to be ANGEL WITH A RAY GUN. So it got written, so it remains through the publishing cycle. I'm glad so far my pubs have liked my titles, but I know it doesn't usually work like that.
Anonymous said, on 7/17/2008 6:50:00 PM
The cover for Undone is similar to John Green's soon to be released Paper Town -- with just a girl's face taking up the cover.
I used to cringe at all the YA covers, with headless girls on every cover, each one less distinguishable than the last. Now, I know where all the heads went, they've saved them up, and lo and behold, all new YA's will have only a girl's head.
I like it, it just seems the covers are really similar, shockingly so. And in YA, where two are, 1,000 more just like it are soon to follow. Cool title, though, UNDONE.
I saw Jenny O'Connell's two books in my local B&N just yesterday, so big congrats to her! Interestingly, the "Rich Boys" book only had one copy left. Wonder if that was because of the title with the word "Boys" in it or the hot-bodies of the guys on the cover?
Anonymous said, on 7/17/2008 7:15:00 PM
this is totally off topic, but I was just wondering how muchthe average writer gets paid for a ya novel. Thanks!
Anonymous said, on 7/18/2008 12:08:00 AM
The high concept stuff practically comes with its own title from the second you think of it.
If it's about a bankrobbing robot with AI capabilities, then it can only be called AUTOMATIC WITHDRAWL, right? I mean, what else could it be?
Anyway, if you're having trouble coming up with a title, give me the blurb and I'll suggest a title for you.
I wonder how many times people change their titles before deciding on the final version! A few of mine have arrived straight away, others I'm still not happy with.
I've had my share of struggling to find the right title. Occasionally a great title for the story or a book will just leap into my head, but more often I end up doing the "make a list of significant words" kind of exercise that results in an adequate but not thrilling title.
Another example of adequate versus really good: When Jane Austen wrote PRIDE & PREDJUDICE her first title for it was FIRST IMPRESSIONS. I'm glad she worked at it, because I think the second title has a lot more punch.
"Anyway, if you're having trouble coming up with a title, give me the blurb and I'll suggest a title for you."
Fun idea. I think I'm going to have a name that book contest. Winner gets eternal thanks and a pound of famous, kind of, pralined pecans. In the event there are no winners (entrants), I will eat the pecans. Please don't make me do that.
I like my titles so much, I can't even cheat and re-write my query with a new one.
Two words works for me.
I'll waffle with the book titles added to the series title. Is that cheating?
No difference anyway. I've pretty much lost hope on agents. Publishers for me from now on. No, I'm lying. Agents who haven't rejected me are still going to get the queries. Sorry, Kristin. You'll keep hearing from me. Maybe I can wear you down.
If a long title is truly an agent turn-off, that strikes me as a bit unfair...considering that most publishers throw out any titles we mere authors think of anyway! I'm hoping that you don't use a title as a screening tool to reject on a query!
To me, if the rest of the story is good, get back to the author and say, "What can we call this that's catchier?" If the rest of the story is not good, it's a reject anyway. But it's certainly a bit knee-jerk if you decline to request sample chapters because the title of an unpublished work doesn't "catch" you!
It never occurred to me that coming up with a title is something that a writer should do before submitting the work to an agent. I guess I figured it was a bit like the cover - outside the writer's control. Is it necessary / recommended to come up with a title at the query stage?
Anonymous said, on 7/21/2008 1:42:00 PM
Marva,
You might want to hold off on querying publishers yourself if you're still querying agents, because if the agents know you've already shotgunend your ms. to the publishing industry, they won't be happy, because they'll be trying to sell something that's already been rejected.
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Thanks so much for this.
I've been struggling and struggling with my POV.
I've heard it said so many times that the third person POV is best for romance...but it just sounded so...blahhh...
I coulnd't stand to write like that anymore with this character.
It felt too 'he said, she said, they did that' to me. I wanted to really pin down the camera.
Maybe in a nother one. I feel released from the stress of 'which way is best here?!' kind of thing.
Thank you, thank you, thank you!
I think first person makes for an easier write, personally. Especially since the narrative part of the story can have a lot of flavor too, which isn't as normal in third person.
I also like using the "not there" first person - i.e. someone is clearly telling the story, but they're not actually part of the story, so it's in third person. (Is there any actual word for that, like first person omniscient or something? I'm sure there must be...)
Personally, I write whichever works best for the plot. If I change POVs often, I use third person. If I plan on using a plot that has a constant MC, I use first person. Really, it's all a matter of which works best.
I'm a writing professor and just finished a three-year long evaluation of 200+ randomly chosen YA books. The goal was to determine the extent to which external marketing drives sales and, in cases where sales exceeded or did not meet sales expectations, what caused the difference.
In YA, writing in first person was a huge advantage.
I didn't study adult books, so I can't tell you there. But in YA I would almost always always go with first person.
(my guess is that due to the developmental stages typical to adolescence, identity formation is a key motivation for reading and/or intellectual investigation. First person allows the reader to more fully immerse themselves into the protagonist--as if the story was happening to *them.*)
From 3rd person to first person, present tense (which Hunger Games is in) is a huuuge difference. I wonder if she did first person past tense as well.
Regarding headhopping -- Stephanie Meyer did some first person head hopping in Breaking Dawn. It worked well, I thought, although I think it would only work in long stretches. Chapter by chapter headhopping in 1st person would get a little tiring.
I think first person is much more difficult to write, especially with some genres, like thriller. Some writers - like Steve Martini - do it exceptionally well, but when its done poorly, it shows.
Funny you posted this when you did. I pulled out an ms today that I hadn't touched in about a month or so. After writing about 50 pages--and every page a strugge--I set it aside in favor of more productive projects. Just this afternoon, I looked at it again, and thought maybe I should try it from a different angle (first person instead of third), and wow, what a difference. I have a new motivation to work on it again... unfortunately, I have other another project that is too far along now to stop the momentum (and ironically, it hadn't even been started when I'd set this other one aside). Such is how it goes. *sigh* I know I'll get back to it eventually, probably even by late summer, but it's hard to let that spark extinguish once it's been reignited.
This isn't the first time I've made a POV switch mid-draft, but I've never done it after *completing* a first draft. Usually, it happens within the first 50 pages, because by that point, I have a pretty good idea of whether something is working well or not.
@Kerry - Are you publishing your work anywhere? It sounds really interesting.
Thanks, Lehcarjt.
We're working on the write-ups now, but we're looking to publish in some academic journals when we finish polishing the conclusions and such.
I've got a chapter coming out in a Palgrave-Macmillan textbook on creative writing and some of it will be there, though textbooks can be pricey and I think this one doesn't come out till next year.
I have a research-results summary I'd be happy to send you if you'd like. Just email me: [kerryspencer at byu dot edu.]
And on the jumping between character heads thing...
I think it's supposed to be sort of gauche in adult lit, but in YA lit, we found that it increased resonance levels in readers. not sure why, but go ahead and do it if it works. It might even help your sales.
*chiming in about YA in first person*
I've found that first person works well in YA (both as a reader and a writer), for all the reasons stated above. Nice to see that thinking backed up by clinical results. :)
I agree that it depends on the story. My completed YA is in 3rd person, but the YA I've just started is in 1st person. It wasn't intentional - it's just how the story came out.
When I read Hunger Games, I got the distinct impression in many scenes that it was crying out to be written in past tense instead of present. Honestly, I think it would have been better that way. It would be interesting to see some of those third person pages of hers if she did make a switch.
I wrote my book in third because I switch POV several times depending on where the "action" is at that point. The young readers who've read it so far have really liked the movement.
Mary Kole was just talking about this on her blog (kidlit.com) It's one of those things (one of thousands) that no one can tell you which way is best.
I wrote my WIP in first and third for about 75 pages. Both had their pros and cons, but finally I decided to go with third and I'm happy with it.
At some point you've just got to make decisions and commit to them. You can second guess yourself until the end of time.
Ugh. Head hopping is rarely a good idea. Even in third person.
However, close-third allows the reader to get into the character's head, with only one POV character.
Personally, I prefer first person for YA, and close-third for MG.
Fascinating research, Kerry!
I've never been able to write well in third-person POV...my characters always come out flat and 1D, with little life and spark.
Something I've noticed in YA (and maybe this is just me, I don't know) is that head-hopping first-person POVs are not uncommon (i.e. Rules of Attraction, Shiver), and that even when third-person POV is used, it tends not to head-hop but stays very closely with one character (i.e. Harry Potter, Fire, The Giver, etc).
I also thought it was interesting that romance prefers third-person POV. I've always wondered why I didn't read more romances with first-person POVs since heavy emotions are involved (and since men don't really read romances I would think there's less need to head-hop into the male lead's head)....but I guess the genre must have its reasons that I'm too naive to see!
I have to chime in against head-hopping. I have been taken out of story so many times when an author bounces from one character's thoughts to another mid-scene. It makes me have to figure out who's thinking or why we aren't with the main character. Unless a writer is really skilled and can do it seamlessly (there are those authors), I think it has potential for losing the reader. I don't mind if it's done at scene breaks with set-up line that lets you know which character you're with.
Whether choosing the POV to use or deciding whether to alternate POV, I think the author should have solid reasons for being in a particular viewpoint.
And you can also add mystery by not having too many viewpoints. It bugs me to have a mystery or secret revealed at the end that a veiwpoint character would have known but never thought about during the course of the story. I feel manipulated by that scenario.
That's my two cents, which I toss around freely on this subject, realizing that other people may disagree.
how interesting about hunger games.
i haven't read it, but i did the same thing with my current work in progress. i was already over 50 pages in when i realized it just wasn't working as well as i thought it should.
so i decided to rewrite in first person and compare which was better. i even gave both versions to a couple beta readers who both agreed with me: first person pov was better for this novel.
kristen is absolutely right when she says you have to choose the one that is a better fit and best illustrates the main characters.
True, comes down to the story..though it does get disturbing when one's writing in first POV and you know the person and they are going on and on about some really weird stuff..really disturbing
It's not head-hopping; it's toggling narrative distance, LOL.
I've learned a lot by re-writing something in third that I've written in first. In fact, I've even gone so far as to write something in first, re-write in third, and then re-write in first. A lot of good things come of that exercise. If one has the time, lol.
How convenient! I was just discussing my own issues with this problem today! Of course, I wasn't thinking in terms of 'which sells better?', but in terms of 'which can I support more?'
I'd say 99% of my writing has been in 3rd person. I've used it consistently for upwards of 5 years now, and I'm comfortable with it. Then, out of the blue, my character decides SHE wants to tell her story, so step aside. What's more, she decided this at 4am and dragged me out of bed to start it. Not very nice at all.
Now I'm left with the decision of whether I want to continue letting her take the reigns - if she'll actually be able to control herself for the whole story - or if I want to fall back into my comfort zone. And what if I make the wrong choice and end up 50 or 100 pages in with no place to go? Ugh.
First person POV is great if you want to suffuse a whole story in a single character's voice. It helps to encourage the reader to identify with the character and it keeps the author grounded in that character's sensibility. And there's a smoothness and efficiency to aligning the reader with the same character in every single scene.
This is especially effective in mystery or suspense type novels where the reader and the character are both kind of confused, and trying to figure out what's going on. It also works very well in YA or chick lit stories where the reader and protagonist are trying together to decode social cues and figure out the motives of the other characters. If you hate first-person, though, a close limited third person narration can be just as effective.
Head jumping and perspective shifts become impossible in first person, eliminating any tricky choices about how and when to do these things. Authorial decisions about what to describe and how to describe things can be simplified by filtering those decisions through the character.
However, when significant plot events take place outside that character's presence, it is often more elegant to jump to a different perspective character, rather than relating these events to the first-person narrator (and the reader) as expository dialog. This is especially true in some complicated thrillers or fantasy/sci-fi epics, where plot events are happening simultaneously to different characters in different places.
If you want the reader to know something the protagonist does not, or to focus on some detail that the protagonist ignores, it is very difficult to achieve that in first person. Similarly, if the protagonist knows some big twist or secret that the reader does not, the reveal will feel like a cheat in the intimate confines of first person. And sometimes, you may want to keep some distance between the protagonist and the reader, so the reader can doubt the character's motives.
If you really love first-person, it is possible to solve these problem by shifting among multiple first person narrators, but it is very difficult to manage multiple distinct narrative voices in a single story.
Good answer.
The main sub-genre that I feel isn't a good match for first person is Epic Fantasy. Doesn't sound like a good plan to me.
My first YA novel, that I'm still working on, is one where I wrote the first draft in first person. It's now in third person. I had to get through it all and really see where things were going before figuring out that it won't work in that point of view. Things like that happen.
And the truth is that you're right. It's whatever fits best with that story. That, and maybe what the author prefers to write in. If a writer dislikes first person, or third person, then that may hinder their writing if they try to force it on themselves.
I've been a subscriber to this blog for only a short time thus far, but I have to say, I think Kristin is inside my head. It seems like her blog posts perfectly correspond to whatever writer dilemna is currently plaguing me.
While writing my current manuscript, I ran into problems deciding on a PoV. I caught myself hopping from my MC's 1st to side scenes where I would use 3rd as my MC wasn't present, giving the reader a "sneak peek." I honestly don't know if it will end up working, but I've decided to go with it and see where it will take me. I can always cut/change it in the end, as good writing is mostly in the revision.
I also read a great article online about it: http://www.tarakharper.com/k_frstpr.htm I'm not affiliated with that website in any way, but I found it helpful.
This is a great question, and one that hardly gets any air time. Kudos to you Kristin! I love your blog and this is why.
I too have experienced the epiphany that my book would work better in first person than third. This was an apocalyptic book, and I just wasn’t feeling the events the way I wanted to. So I changed the POV from third to first.
I discovered something. It’s possible to write something almost as intimate as first person in third person limited. There is a slight difference, but I think the largest different exists in our minds. We think “oh, this is third person, it’s not as intimate as first” so we just write from the distance we’re used to. I had a lot of fun writing another book in third person limited and trying to keep it as intimate as first person. You guys should try it sometime. Write a passage in first, especially if the protagonist is opinionated, and then switch it to third. Start by just changing pronouns, and the character name to “I”.
There is a difference, of course, but it doesn’t have to be as big as you think.
Personally, I think first person gets overused. I love first person, but I have read many a novel where I think it should have been written in third. The character didn’t have a really strong, unique voice, and so things were sort of hum-hum. It wouldn’t have been as bad in third person. I think if you’re going the first person route, you need to make sure your character has a unique, distinct voice to tell your story. Otherwise it’s a hindrance.
I actually have a difficult time writing in first person. Third has alwasy been easiest for me to write, but I know I ought to learn how to write first person better in order to become a well rounded writer.
Anyway my current book is third. My only issue is trying to figure out if I should add another perspective or not. I've added a few scenes with my other character but it's seems stilted, probably because I don't "know" him well enough yet. Guess I just have to keep writing!
A great topic to think about. I'm not sure what I feel about third person vs first person. When I wrote the first pages of my project and sent it out to my critique group, they all agreed that first person would be difficult to pull off and that third person would sound more "professional". I think perhaps it's because I'm writing in the fantasy genre, and they also said there are an abundance of terrible novels in first person. But I love first person, I think there's something interesting about seeing things from such a narrow perspective.
Both my published novels were entirely rewritten from a different POV. I started my adult novel in first person, but received a critique that the narrator lacked the life experience and insight to carry the story. I switched to third person, which also allowed me to get into the heads of the two other principal characters, one who in the course of the revision clearly became the protagonist. In the process of revising, more than half of the scenes were new, to accommodate the other two characters' perspectives.
In the case of the YA, I originally wrote it in third person, but the editor felt she couldn't connect with the story. At that time I was young and maybe didn't have the skill yet to switch into a first person teenage male voice. (For some reason, switching the POV didn't occur to any of us.) I gained that skill when I wrote the adult novel from the first person POV of a woman hardly out of her teens, so the false start wasn't a total waste. I gutted the YA, leaving only the first chapter (in third person for reasons that become evident later on in the story) and rewriting the rest--all new scenes, too--from alternating first person POV. And while the story is mainly told from the POV of the male protagonist, his girlfriend narrates about 60 pages in the middle because she sneaks off and finds out/experiences things that he can't know--in this way heightening the urgency and dramatic irony.
Just wanted to comment that I recently finished All Roads Lead Me Back to You by Kennedy Foster (one of Janet Reid's books) and she headhops within scenes and does it brilliantly. I'd been anti-headhopping till I read her book. I really can't imagine the story being told another way.
I wrote my last YA in 1st person. This time I'm using third. I know 1st person is really popular in YA. I just can't bring myself to do it this time. I mostly stay in one character's head, but occasionally need to show something else. It's a tough, tough call. Especially when 1st person feels like an easier write.
I am personally not a fan of head-hopping EVER. I've read tons of other agents are very anti-head-hopping as well. On the flip side, I don't consider switching to another characters POV at a chapter break head-hopping, nor do I consider it head-hopping when you switch at a scene break.
I don't mind switching character POV's during a chapter change, but I dislike it during a scene change. Furthermore, I am much more comfortable with switching "heads" in third person than in first.
Lastly, I think third person should ALWAYS be third person limited (or close third, or whatever). Unless you are writing third person omniscient, and are CLEARLY not in any one persons head, it is rough on the reader to jump back and forth, and they will lose that all-important connection to the main character.
JMHO.
I'm not a huge fan of reading third person (it takes longer for me to get into the story), and when I try to write in 3P, it always falls flat.
I do read third person sometimes, if I love the concept enough, but the whole omniscient (I think that's the right word ... my brain is friend), head-hopping thing isn't for me. I need the writer to focus on one character per chapter, or at least per section. Otherwise, it starts to feel like talking heads, and I can't get grounded in the story.
@jessjordan: I agree with the omniscient comment. This post inspired me to write about the common POV's... you should see what I wrote... kinda backs up your feeling.
http://www.cmichaelfontes.com/
"Last week we asked for a full manuscript from a partial we had read. The writer emailed to say he was contemplating a big revision shifting POV."
I'm absolutely astounded that an aspiring writer would have the nerve to do that. My God, if the agent liked the partial's POV, just send the full out. Don't start overhauling the whole manuscript now and wasting the agent's time!
Kristin wrote: If we need to be inside the main character’s head, then first person POV. If the story would benefit from being able to head hop (as you can do in third person), well, then there you have it.
A little POV 101.
In first person, we're "inside" the main character's head only as they report to us. They may or may not be telling us the truth -- the unreliable narrator -- depending upon why is they are telling this story [that is, what triggered the story or what is their purpose in telling the story]; who is their contextualized audience [you would tell the same story differently to a police officer then you would your best friend in a locker room]; and, what is the narrative distance in time [that interval between where the narrator is now in their life and the moment of when the events recounted occurred]. Third person doesn't have those issues of reliability. Moreover, if you write in third person using free indirect discourse, the narrative is right inside the mind of a focalizing character (a "focalizer"), unmediated, as the narrator and focalizer "share" a consciousness. So it's not accurate to say you get in the mind of a character in first person and you don't in third.
Second, it's true that, in third person, depending upon how the narrative distance in space is manipulated (the distance between the narrator and the focalizer), depending on the level of omniscience, you can move more or less freely among focalizers. This allows a different kind of freedom than first person but one that many writers use simply to give us information for the sake of plot. Because you can change focalizers doesn't mean you should. But, let us not forget that many writers, among them, Barry Hannah and Philip Roth, have used first person omniscience to great effect. The same "head hopping" (I don't like that term I'm afraid), Kristin refers to. We can naturalize these by believing that the narrator, as a reporter might do, learned what happened from other characters and then presents the novel as if they were there as the events unfolded.
Many (new) writers assume that writing in first person is easier to write because of their strong personal identification with the "I" of the story. But they don't realize that the "I" is a construct, just another character.
Perhaps the reason that some of the commenters here have a problem writing in third person is because they don't quite get how to manipulate that narrative distance in space. If there is distance, if there is narratorial mediation (and by that I mean the narrator is constantly telling us what a focalizer is seeing or thinking or feeling rather than just give us what is seen or thought or felt), if there is a disconnect between the diction and imagery and word choice, the language used, in the story and the worldview of a focalizer, this will cause the problems described in the comments.
I teach English for YA's and I recently had a conversation w/ one of my students on this very topic. She started to read a novel and gave up. When I asked her why, she said, "I hate when they talk in first person."
Funny thing... A couple of weeks before I had checked out the same book out our library, read a couple of chapters, and then put it down for EXACTLY the same reason.
So I think first person is trendy in YA right now, but I don't think it's a MUST DO, if you get my drift.
I don't think first person is going to work well in YA with a grand theme, eg, Pullman or Rowling for example -- there's too much that can't be conveyed. Small ideas like Twilight. . .obviously yes, and perhaps middle grade as well.
Third close/limited is much more flexible and useful.
I've tried omniscient third. It just doesn't work for me. I can't manage head-hopping properly and end up falling back on one person's POV by the end of the scene. I tend to play it in limited third from the start, now, and then head-hop around via subsections within the chapter, but each section is a single person's POV.
I'm a bit of an orator, so first person humor comes very naturally to me. Third person narrative humor is a lot harder to pin down, but it's almost more rewarding for it. I have a satire in the works that pretty much begs to be written in first person, though. Who am I to argue?
Hi Kristin! I've just started a new blog! If you get a second, please check it out! Thank you!
http://laurenspathtopub.blogspot.com/
I like to use second person for short stories- it keeps the narrative tight
Thanks - this is one of those things that goes around - no one want this, editors will shoot you down if you do that, when the reality is you should write the book the BEST was possible.You can't remind writers of that enough.
Maybe your prospective client can do like Jodi Thomas, whose "Twisted Creek" has both first person and third person pov?
Ordinarily, I wouldn't suggest it, but it worked out really well in Twisted Creek. The protaganist was in first person, but when the pov switched to the male mc, it was third person.
I love reading third person, myself, but her character had such a voice, that I was totally caught up in the first person chapters, then when it switched to third, I was equally happy, because that's what I love.
Anyway, just a thought. :-)