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Thank God my small press contract didn't have any of this in here. But having some of these explained is really helpful!

Skip things that go bump in the night. This contract and the legalese that accompanies it sounds downright frightening.

EEEK! Scary indeed. And I can see someone like me...who will be so excited to even have a contract...not pay attention to these details. Thanks for heads up.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

This scary post was worth the price of admission. Oh yeah, you don't charge.

Did I say thanks.

Good post.

But one thing to consider is that small presses, especially e-presses nowadays who are facing heavy competition, are so intent on maintaining their "image" they usually bend and sway to the author's needs...in most cases, not all. In other words, the slightest scandal on the interwebs can, and sometimes does, cost them huge sales, which isn't something they are willing to risk.

Authors without agents have to know how to play the game and work everything to their own advantage. And when it comes to "image" these days, everyone is concerned about what's put out there in public. Once the image is tarnished even slightly, small presses lose readership and potential authors who might have submitted to them.

The scariest thing I've seen in publishing are the cyberbullying and stalking web sites and blogs that claim to help writers but just create problems for the industry and act extremely anti-social, calling their competitors a scam in order to survive rather than earn their way up the ladder by merit. They have no accountability and claim "lack of jurisdiction" when they tell a lie about someone on the internet and ruin someone else's reputation. They are cowards like Miss Snark who never was or will be a real live literary agent. Terry P.

When I read something like this, I wonder why anyone would EVER attempt getting published without an agent.

Karen Peterson--
I totally agree! I don't know any legal jargon, how in the world would I be able to tell if I'm getting screwed over??? I think getting an awesome agent is the best thing to do.

The agent *will* know to tell the publishers to revise if they see these things right?

It's my opinion that most of those "ruined" agents or other individuals in the publishing industry generally caused the damage to their reputations in the first place. What they don't like is being held accountable or outed to writers who might need genuine srvices.

Mr. Kuzminski, you have already been proven guilty of defamation in the Virginia courts by an attorney and a judge. So are the cowardly Miss Snark and people like Writer Beware who have posted to her blog and then do not wish to be held accountable claiming "lack of jurisdiction." What a copout. They should be telling the truth in the first place. I am sick of listening to
hypocrites who claim to have manners but are really vigilantes and social misfits

And they're at it again. Folks, please see Victoria's (Writer Beware's) post on The Write Agenda, and decide what should scare you here.

The Write Agenda and Writer Beware

Kristin, thanks so much for the contracts post. Unfortunately, I've heard of real horror stories where noncompete clauses were concerned, and the same with options. Your words of warning are appreciated.

Yikes. I've been reading agent blogs for a few years and thought I had heard of most of the big clauses to avoid, but these ones are new to me and quite scary. Agreeing with Karen Peterson and questioning why anyone would accept a contract without an agent or at least someone very versed in legal matters looking over it.

@Anonymous 3:22
So quit listening, or go create your own blog to combat them (or at least own up to any you already have) rather than leaving anonymous comments that don't give anyone any perspective of your authority on the manner.

"What they don't like is being held accountable or outed to writers who might need genuine srvices."

There is a lot of bad advice going around these days, from so-called reputable agents. This bad advice is mainly with respect to e-publishing, something most agents don't want to even think about now...unless it involves them cashing in on it. So why aren't these folks being called to task as well on the so-called writer beware blogs? I'm all for exposing the creeps, but expose them all and stop playing politics with the ones you like because it fits a specific agenda...or goes against a model no one wants to challenge. Get a pair.

Kristen, since you've written this(thank you, by the way)I'm curious as to your thoughts on the situation with L.J.Smith, the author of the vampire diaries. a friend recently told me that L.J. Smith is no longer allowed to write another Vampire diaries book and any new ones will be ghostwritten by others without her input. How could something like that happen? How did she lose the rights to her characters and books?

Anonymous @ 9:54pm

I can answer this. Smith never owned the rights to the books in the first place. She was hired on by the publisher in order to write those specific stories. Her contracts stated that everything--characters, the whole package--belong to the publisher.

From what I've heard (take this with a grain of salt), the publisher didn't like the direction she was taking with the books, therefore decided to hire someone else to continue the series.

Nothing cowardly about Miss Snark (who has been put to rest). Funny, smart and meant to teach and entertain. You obviously missed the joke, darlin'.

Thanks for the helpful post, Kristin. Apart from having a good agent and/or hiring a suitable lawyer to look over contracts, is there any other way authors can protect themselves from these nightmare clauses?

P.S Miss Snark rulz, ok?

LOL... these WriteAgenda people are really poor writers!

Great advice, Kristin...

Most ebook authors can't get agents (or don't need them yet) and they sign contracts that they don't understand. I recently had a offer on a novel, and after trying to make heads or tails out of it, I ended up asking questions on writer loops. I got some great advice and ended up red-lining through the contract. They didn't like my terms and we parted ways. I'm really happy I didn't sign, and now that same book sold to another ePub. This ePub had a simple contract, two pages long, and words even I could understand and live with.

Don't sign if you are not sure. Do your homework. Even better, talk to the pubs authors and see if they are happy.

Thank you thank you thank you for the education. :)

Incredibly helpful - thank you for providing author holy water! (Not that all publishers are $sucking vampires but...)

Info like this re-affirms why agents are so important.

And I love that you have a "career suicide" tag.

Would have been nice to export something like...I don't know, new and improved toe socks?

There are, unfortunately, so many people who want to be published so bad that they'll fall for so many things.

the server 74.201.57.56:27007 on counter-strike involving ji-had banned me

I hope this makes the rounds in social networks. But it's the kind of thing a lot of authors want to stay away from. It's like trying to go up against book pirates. They can, and will, leave bad reviews about authors on purpose just to get even. And with the way review systems are set up on places like amazon and goodreads, they have full control to do whatever they way. And bad reviews can hurt. There's a certain amount of fear involved and I know authors who have been told to stay away from these things by publishers.

But I hope that other people reading this will help spread the word.

Sounds like you need someghing good and funny to look at. Go to youtube and type in "the front fell off interview"

Dont pay agents. Just keep sending them your horrible writing and drive them to an early grave from starvation.

I have been through something like that,a scam. I won't mention any names but it's like Angela said, you are desperate to get published and would do about anything. I was so exited when they said they want to represent me that I was blind and didn't see the big question marks. It sucks though to find out that they were only a scam. At least I have learned my lesson and will do my research first before making a decision. Thank you agent for blogs like these. I have learned so many things just by reading your entries.

Regard, all the way from Sunny South Africa.

Just found this blog today and have been trolling through pages and pages of past posts!

Consider this a love note.

Absolutely beautiful! I am feeling well to read this post and found this fabulous blog!I have to share with my friends.


Sample Contracts

Keep scamming literary agents with your awful writing and tell them it will be a bestseller. That's right, just keep scamming the literary agents and drive them to an early grave by wasting all their time on your badly written work that no one will ever buy and make them read your work for free so they die young.

Well maybe the writer got the I have to finish this fire. If it was that good to start a note to review and refocus the story to finish the way he started. Which was probably focused. I have started stories and not known where they were going and lost it. Some were salvageable and some not. A word of encouragement can help a writer to refocus. It might turn into the book you hoped it would be.

Thank you. I especially appreciated the final note about the time involved in doing what every writer wishes every agent could do. It makes the form letter responses seem that much more reasonable when also considering the sheer volume of submissions every agent receives.

I missed seeing you at the Missouri Writers Guild conference this year. I don't see the 2012 conference on your upcoming schedule (yet). Do you anticipate possibly attending again in 2012? I promise I'm not stalking you! I just live in the vicinity and have been hoping for a second chance at a pitch appointment with you.

I think this can stem from a writer getting the feeling that they've done the heavy lifting to get their story rolling, and now they're free to goof off a little because the reader must be hooked by that point (also, possibly an extension of that "first chapter syndrome"? Page 100-140 is probably all the farther you're going to get in a [limited-duration] novel workshop, so if a writer doesn't take feedback that got their beginning so good and apply that throughout, they'll likely have a comparatively undercooked middle arc).

Uh-oh, sagging middle syndrome.

It goes to show how hard it is to get the whole thing right. It's also where writers need crit partners who they can swap entire mss with so you can see your mistakes in another person's work - and they can see yours.

When you know what the mistake is (or how many there are), it's so much easier to fix.

Oh, dear. You speak of the malady I currently suffer. It's fatal! I have a contract for book one, and am following it up with the 2nd instalment of the trilogy and I know, I JUST KNOW, I'm hedging around adherence to plot building and allowing my characters have a bit of fun. I'm finding it diffult to tear myself from that path. I wonder if I'm avoiding the first 'kill?' It's the death of a well loved character. Oh well - I'll just pull out the guillotine and be done with it.

I've never liked plots. I like my characters to acknowledge a plot exists, but to avoid it as much as possible. That said, there must be some kind of motivation, some plot going on that's important to the characters, otherwise you've got a vaudeville show, not a novel. It's a subtle problem, though, and one I've never really thought about until just now. Thanks for the insight.

Do you suggest more character development before starting the book, so the author knows their motivations/reactions better? Or more plot outline, so that the characters can move and breathe inside a set form that is moving forward? I think I get cuaght up in planning and then am scared to launch into a first draft, but sometimes find myself in the middle wondering what is actually happening!!

The best advice I ever got on combating this was to go scene-by-scene asking WHY everything important (especially every decision by a character) was the way it was (e.g., why does this person do X if they want Y, why does this scene fail to advance the plot, etc.), and to rip or fix anything I didn't have a concrete answer for. If you're not afraid of rewriting, this can work very well.

I think it's a good thing you're identifying this problem at the submission level. I've had an increasingly high number of novels that were DNF's lately because the blurb was good, but the book fizzled out 100 pages in and I just wasn't motivated to pick it back up.

My TBR pile is way too high to spend time on a book that's going nowhere. For me, an exciting plot and likeable characters is very important. Unfortunately, there are a lot of books out there that lack both which makes me sad because all I hope for when I pick up a book is to get lost in the story.

Tracey

PS, my RWA magazine came and it featured some comments from our fabulous international visitors to the Melbourne conference, including some from you.

You were so fabulous, and you commented on the high quality of our tea.

I think I have the answer. You're too high up in Denver to get good tea.

Melbourne, on the other hand, is at sea level.

At sea level, water boils at 100 degrees c and makes an excellent cup of tea.

One mile up, water boils at only 95 degrees, so it's not hot enough to get the right reaction with the tea leaves.

I've thought way too much about this.

But I also love my tea.

Dear Kristin, I have a question based on the very savvy and excellent advice you gave in a recent Writers Digest. (Also, I love Jamie Ford's book)...

Do you have tips on how writers can choose between different agents; determine if or when to switch agencies; and broach issues/ concerns with an existing agent in a productive way?

14 agents wanted to rep me (proboably because I queried close to a hundred - it's all percentages). Of these, I narrowed it down to 5. Of the five, I had a terrible time choosing, they all sincerely seemed great and were repping at least one major author whom I really admired.

In the end I chose at first based on "who seemed the most literary minded"; then realized she was working way too slowly (very very slow to get back, etc) to make me comfortable given that I was about to give birth and wanted to resolve certain things before then. So then I chose a very 'can do' agent -- but her editorial vision is simply not as sophisticated. She has an excellent commercial sense, but is somewhat at a loss re: literary critiques.

So we got less money for the novel as we submited than we would have in its current form I think...but she's overall a great agent. I just don't know if we're the best match.

Any advice on figuring this stuff out would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

anon

Good point. I'm having major fun writing a zombie novel at the moment. It's only the first draft, so I'm just blitzing my way through this crazy world I've created. During the editing process is when I can make sure my story isn't lacking in plot and character flow.

My first draft was more of a "let's get a time line and get the characters from A to B" thing (ended up around a mere 45K words) Now that I'm in draft 2, and know I have so much room to work around, I'm just letting my characters fill the voids left and have fun! They really take a life of their own. I think that making multiple drafts and reading each one thoroughly from start to finish in hard copy is essential to making sure you don't lose the story.
Also, thanks for letting us know how long it takes an agent to draft an editorial letter. I like learning how agents do things and how much effort they put into their work.

Yowch, what a problem to have!

One thing I found that may lead to it: when a writer falls in love with elements or parts of the story, and insists on keeping them whether they work or not.

I discovered during a particularly brutal round of second drafting that it doesn't matter how hard you try to cobble those pieces together; you can ignore it or you can scrap it, but if it don't work, it don't work.

Dear writer friends: Truth and reality do not have to be logical. Fiction does.

I was going to say the same thing as Ebony, up above. Even pro writers with decades of experience say they have trouble getting the middle right. 40,000 words into a novel, it's easy to get lost. By then you've burned out the fire in your belly that started things rolling, you've gotten used to the characters and you probably know where they have to go, but you can't figure out how to get them there. And of course, you're no longer in love with the premise the way you were 150 pages ago.

A good trick I picked up somewhere (sorry, I don't remember where) is to focus on the antagonist when you get lost. Spend time thinking about what the antagonist is doing behind the scenes. What new scheme is the villain working on? What roadblocks and danger will he present to the hero, to force the hero deeper into the abyss (based on the assumption that the story has a hero and conflict... most do, right?)?

This is why I love screenwriting books like 'Save the Cat', because they can really help in the rewrite process by outlining where the bones of a story should go. My first drafts are super fun, and a wild monster romp, but I've learned that the first draft had better be followed up by a disciplined second draft in which everyone is required to go to bootcamp!

I would be very grateful if someone told me, in a rejection, "The beginning is great, but then you start wandering and I finally gave up at page 100." No more than that. It would be invaluable information for me. ^_^

As people have said above, saggy middle is a very common problem, particularly for discovery writers. No shame in it, just means it needs some more work to connect the beginning to the end.

Laurie

Total non sequitur: My god, it's like we have the same exact music collection. Glad I'm not the only one.

That is all. Carry on.

Recently I reviewed a self-published novel which had it the opposite way round. The first two thirds of the book had the character wandering around in a fairly unstructured way. Building character and setting the scene, I suppose. And then, suddenly the story began.
I would never have got far enough if I hadn't had to review the thing. Shame really, because itcouldhave been two decent books - a nonfiction travel guide and a novel. But it was definitely prematurely published.

This is a fantastic post. People constantly ask about what types of beginnings they should avoid, and the cliches are always passed around. This isn't quite a cliche (since it could happen in any scenario), but it definitely happens. Thank you!

Yes! You have to know who your main character is in the opening scene, even if everybody else doesn't.

I'm a major pantser, but I do a lot of character development activities before I start writing. Even then, I often go back and re-write the first scene after I've written the book.

excellent point. Thank you!

To be fair, when you first start writing a book, you don't know the characters very well. You only just met them, after all. But on the other hand, a writer truly devoted to his craft should revise these problems out. To do otherwise is just plain lazy.

-LupLun

You make a great point. Thanks for sharing this.

That's why my first chapters are often written last. Where I start is often not the right place when I get to the end...

This actually helped me a lot with a book I'm working on! I do want to remember that my character is already used to this! Or at least, this isn't a surprise! (unless it actually is...ad not something that usually happens) things like that are small, but make a difference! Thank you!

Thank you for this post. I'm nearly done with the first draft of my latest novel, and your point is one that I will definitely keep in mind as I work on subsequent drafts.

Thank you for this post! I will definitely keep this in mind on my new novel, and will go back and check the first chapter of my recently finished novel.

http://lilliemcferrin.blogspot.com

Along the same lines as Kate's comment, this is why my opening chapters are revised more than any others. Great post. Thank you!

Having had a speed-demon grandmother, the proper reaction for a child in the car would be to squeal and shout "Goose it, Gramma! Goose it!"

Or at least it was at the end of the '70s. :)

Kristin,
You perfectly described an opening flaw that I've not been able to articulate in critique groups. When stories open with this flaw, I often ask the question, "Why is this happening right now?" or "Why are these characters behaving this way today?" Now I see that I'm trying to better understand their history in order to put their behaviors into a context that makes sense - something I wouldn't have to do with a polished opening.

Thank you.

In 99.9% of the published novels I've read in my lifetime I've rarely ever wanted to read more just based on the first one, two, or even three pages.

Sometimes authors nail this, in pubbed books or unpubbed mss, and we not only get excellent first pages, but also first paragraphs and even first lines that make us want to read more.

Most of the time, we all need to get past at least the first chapter of any book out there. In some cases, like with Jonathan Franzen, we need to get past the first half of the book to continue reading.

Yes, it's a great tip to keep in mind. But it's not always a realistic tip.

This is a great tip to bear in mind. We all want to make that lasting first impression or draw the reader (here, the agent) with that first scene. Hook. Line. Sinker. But I see your point in charging the scene with great action/reaction without thoroughly ensuring it's normal for the characters involved.

Thank you for sharing.

Thanks for the tip! Keep them coming.

Aw, your example reminded me of driving with my Gram. (You're right--the grandchild wouldn't react wildly. It's all about digging your nails into the upholstery, breathing deeply, and silently wondering why your parents let you ride with her. :) )

Excellent tips. Really useful stuff .Never had an idea about this, will look for more of such informative posts from your side.. good job...Keep it up

A thoughtful pub tip. As a reader, I like to be sucked in to early pages, but it doesn't always happen, of course. As a writer, what I like about this is that I tend to begin at the beginning, and it's difficult to go back and see the beginning a different way once you finish. This gives me a tangle lens for viewing.

Great opening scene advice. While I sometimes write a story by the seat-of-my-pants, I do make sure it all makes sense in the revisions.

The same thing happened at the Orlando SCBWI workshop this summer. The agent mentioned how strange it was as she offered about 10 of us writers suggestions to improve. Maybe more of us are taking critique groups seriously. I even sent my book through a 7th grade class before the workshop. Now I'm trying to get my platform built enough that agents don't laugh their heads off at my measly following. I sent to 6 very famous males and got 4 rejections within hours, and 2 ignores. Now I hope women agents can be a good judge of my teen male character.

That is something I worry about a bit. Do I focus so intently on getting everything write in the mechanics that I lose my own voice? I don't have an answer to that yet.

I work odd hours so I can definitely relate to the 'jet lag' feeling and yes pushing through it is sage advice. For me, the hardest part of traveling is finding time to write. It feels odd doing it on the plane with a pair of eyes hanging over your shoulder. Then the late night dinners cramp the hotel time as well, so alas when does one blog, edit, or write. As for finding the balance with voice and mechanics, yep, I would again agree. I wish there was a magic button I could press at the end of a chapter that took care of all my grammatical short comings. As with your previous advice, the trick I've found is to 'suck it up' and push through the editing process.

Sounds like an awesome conference that I wish I could attend. I met Kelley Armstrong at a book signing and she's the nicest.

I'm at the conference but missed out on getting into this workshop, places filled up quickly! Sounds like its going to be very insightful. Though I imagine some of the feedback will be hard for people to hear. Good luck!

Yeah, I've seen the voice be critiqued out. I recall recently noticing in an online writers' site how several new writers diligently followed every piece of advice from their critiquers, and the revisions got progressively more boring. The 'spark' of the writers' individuality vanished, and at the same time, they were praised by each person who saw their fix completed.

I was once told to stop using a particular sentence construction because, while grammatical, it seemed "consciously affected". I scrubbed the offending construction from that piece. I noticed it in other pieces, removed it, and halted myself each time I started writing it. Then, I caught myself typing it in emails and found it in documents I had written for work years ago. At that point I decided that it was not "consciously affected" but in fact just the way I write. Not using it was taking a whole lot more conscious effort than just letting my voice out.

It's hard to know when to stick to your individual quirks and when to conform -- I wonder if writers need to go through a conforming stage in order to find what elements most rankle them, and then let those bits out again as their voice.

How timely. I often feel constrained in my efforts to write "properly" that I'm not staying true to my voice. I'm a little nervous to let the characters be who I instinctively believe they should be. Writing well is a real art and craft that must be honed.

I believe my husband would welcome a momentary suppression of my natural voice. Great advice.

Great post! I worry a lot about the mechanics of my writing mainly because I DON'T have a background in English--unlike just about every other writer I've met! I know the importance of good grammar, but I've also run into what I call "grammar snobs" that favor mechanics over all else. Maybe I'm way off here, but I don't see a problem with taking mechanical liberties from time to time--especially if doing so enhances the story.

I've seen writer's get their voiced washed out. It's usually because they don't know how to evaluate the advice they are being given so they do everything that everyone is telling them.

Nine times out of ten, a writer needs to evaluate the advice, figure the heart of the problem themselves (if there really is one) , and solve it their own way.

IMO, it's also worth it to spend several months following other people's critique process (especially online), before posting something of one's own. That way the poster gets a good feel for the personalities and which ones they regularly agree/disagree with.

This is also a confidence issue involved.

I think this is SO true and not just of manuscripts. As someone who has participated in an on-line writers community for years and watched people post their query letters for comment, I've seen queries made bland by committee. Since voice is, imo, a deal-breaker I think writers have to be very careful not to lose theirs in an avalance of well-intentioned suggestions. In fact I actually blogged about this myself:

http://www.fromthewriteangle.com/2011/05/voiceits-not-just-for-manuscripts.html

Interesting blog. When I do critiques with my online buddies, I provide the disclaimer that anything I mention is meant to help but that if it doesn't jive with their voice, they should toss it. Writers have their own voices...and I suppose the best thing is do as mentioned near the end of your blog...find the balance between voice and mechanics.

And yes, we new writers are slightly hopeful of discovery...hopeful of being that .01%.

It's true, and it doesn't even have to happen in a workshop. My writing was fine grammatically before, but when I really started paying attention to the "rules of writing", it got pretty dry and boring for a while. It didn't have the same voice or obvious passion behind it because I was trying to adhere too strictly to guidelines. It takes a while to figure out how to balance voice with craft.

This happened to me - the "rules" passed from one writer to another, doing their best to cure what wasn't sick. Once I began trusting in my voice like my gut told me to, I began to have success.

Having one's voice critiqued out of you happened to me in a crit group I anonymously attended a year back. The others in the group read the first pages of a book my agent sold to a major house, and found it to be full of fail.

Every line that was not Strunk and White perfect got the chop and one even asked me "Who's your target market?"

So true about the staying up to adjust. In another life I was an international flight attendant for United...I lived in a perpetual state of jet lag.

As to voice, critiques, mechanics...I think very seasoned writers eventually get to the place where they can feel what feedback is either
1.dead on
2.somewhat helpful in a modified form
3.coming from someone who just doesn't get it

I think it's a matter of having enough confidence and insight into what you are doing to not just get blown away by every strong winded opinion.

And, for the record, I'm not there yet.

Yes, on the voice getting critiqued out of you - I wouldn't stop using critique groups, but I've learned I don't have to take every comment into account - only if what is said resonates with me or shows that what's in my head isn't making it onto the page.

As for hoping to be discovered in workshops, well, yes, there's that secret hope that beats in everyone's heart, but realistically, I've always done workshops for professional feedback - finding out what I'm doing that isn't hitting the mark. That's priceless. (But I've also learned not to do too many workshops as well. They can become a false victory, a substitute for real achievement in writing, if that makes sense.)

Laurie

I learning to express your unique voice takes a lot of hard work, self-discipline and dedication to getting better at the craft of writing. I think slogging through a lot of good and bad critiques is all part of the process. It helped me learn to purposely choose every word and know why I used it. Voice developed from that after a lot more hard work.
Thanks for sharing.

Watching this happen--regularly--to queries under critique is one of the most aggravating parts of using a writing forum. I have been known to run counter to popular opinion, and urge the writer to keep the voice at the expense of so-called perfection. I have also said--repeatedly--that a writer needs to be able to evaluate the critics and their advice as well.

Lehcarjt, I agree with you 100%. It IS a confidence issue, along with a mix of desperation/inexperience. But so help me, it drives me crazy to see it happen.

Added to which, writers are invariably more critical of each other than anyone else, which may stem somewhat from insecurity (thus an excessive attachment to the "rule book.")

I've seen this happen a lot. I've seen crit groups get so focused on "rules" (like, literally, telling people to never use "was" in description) and technical "perfection" that they just sucked the life out of the stories. I've read so many that I can say don't have errors but have no spark. It's sad.

I USED to feel constrained by the mechanics of writing until I realised that I have the freedom to do whatever I want. I now view spelling, punctuation and grammar as an art form and not an exact science - it's so much more fun ;0)

I think this is something that does happen, with alarming frequency. I have taught creative writing, and participated in many many workshops, and I think the problem stems from the something in the structure of the workshop itself. My experience is that students/participants sometimes get too focused on "NOT having anything bad said about my story",which makes sense in a way, given the context. So risks aren't taken, voices aren't explored. Part of it is that often there are people with several different levels of experience in the same workshop, part if it is that, a lot of the time, the participants are set up as "the teacher". I do think a lot is gained from having your work critiqued, but I sometimes wonder if the traditional workshop setting is the way to do it. Too often you're told what's WRONG before people figure out what it IS. But I don't know of a better way, at least at first, at least in some circumstances. But I don't think mechanics get in the way of your voice. Without the mechanics, we can't understand enough of the writing to *hear* the voice. It's not the mechanics, I think. I think The Traditional Workshop needs a revolutionary model

Kristen, your workshop was fantastic and you did not seem jetlagged at all. We all appreciated your honest and direct comments on our work. Even those whose work did not get read out raved about the worshop. So from all of us down under, thankyou.

What Peta said! Also, re the wanting to be discovered thing, I'm sure there was an element of that, or at least of hoping to hear that 'mine is the one she won't stop reading!' But I think most people who submitted their pages probably felt as I did that, tough though it would be to hear, they Needed To Know. If you feel your work is ready, or nearly ready, and it isn't you need to know, so you can fix it. For me, many of the things you highlighted I understood and hope I don't do, but there were some that were a little startling. It was a case of 'Really? That's a deal breaker? I would have let that go. Man, back to the red pen for me!'

I know it must be a bit confronting for you too, to do these workshops, because you are such a nice person and don't want to upset anyone, but we really, really appreciate the insight. It's invaluable. Thank you.

I think you look super cute. Fangirl!

I'm sure you and Mr. Martin both know more about publishing than me, but as a new writer I wrote a book with a very specific open ending in mind--the ending is why I wrote. I knew it would need at least one sequel. I heard that you shouldn't write the sequel to an unpublished ms, so I didn't. I went to a conference and someone asked me to send my book and a synop for the sequel. I had lots of really cool ideas for it when I wrote the book, but I've written another ms since then and while I could remember the basic plot I think a lot of the good stuff got lost. My advice would be maybe don't announce it to the world, but if you want to write a series go for it. But this is just my opinion.

It's sage advice. I think a lot of people are unaware of Martin's non-ASOIAF work, and don't realize how long he's been in the game. He didn't just start with A GAME OF THRONES!

@Beth: I think it depends on why you're writing. If you're writing just to satisfy yourself, go ahead and write a two-book series or a seven-book series! If you're seeking publication, though, it's a bit unwise to invest that much time in something that might not matter if you can't sell your first book. I do think it's really smart to have a synopsis or outline of potential sequels ready to go, though, just in case you get that kind of deal.

Love the picture! You look so excited, hehe.

Great advice, I agree. I like what @Kristin Laughtin added too. I'm working on a ms. that's part of a trilogy, but I'll wait to write the sequel if I sell the first. I can't imagine ever writing a 7-book series! Then again, when I first started writing, I never imagined I would write a novel (I only thought in short stories back then). I wish I would've known about this event. I follow the Tattered Cover on Facebook, but I must've missed this announcement. Would've been fun to attend!

Great picture! Looks like it was a lot of fun.

Awesome picture! Martin is a smart guy. I've met him at a convention once. I got nervous and lost my voice as he was signing my books. I agree with him completely. Finish one stand-alone book and then see where your career takes you.

I'm so jealous you got to see the man in person! I finished A DANCE WITH DRAGONS over the weekend- happy reading to you!

A picture is worth a thousand words - none of them would be dorky. Super-excited-may-need-sedation, yes; dorky, no.

So here's a tangential question, based on the point about mastering the shorter story before aiming for the kind of epic series Martin writes...

I've noticed, Kristin, that some of your clients are publishing novella lately. Do you rep novellas from unpubbed writers or just from established clients? I know NLA doesn't accept short story collections, but novellas seem like a separate beast, especially with the rise of Amazon Shorts and the like.

Thanks! And cool pic!

That is great advice. How awesome you got to go to George Martin's book signing. I would have loved to have gone.

Nice! You look great in the photo. By the way, don't know if you get a chance to read these comments or not, but a local magazine here has a small article about Hotel on the Corner of Bitter and Sweet. You can find it by going to this link and clicking on the large photo of the magazine. It's about a third of the way in. :) http://www.herlifemagazine.com/kansascity/

That's a great pic, and great advice too. Some times I think we feel we need to jump the gate into the biggest projects. I've found my smaller projects to be great teachers and confidence builders.

I'm reading his book right now :) He is awesome. And he's right: writing, like anything else, takes practice to make perfect. Even Lance Armstrong used training wheels once.

Hey, Kristin,

Take it easy and get better. Glad you're back! :)

I so went the other direction. I started with category. Kept getting rejected, and finally a sweet pubbed writer told me maybe I needed to go bigger. And I did. Now that I'm comfy writing bigger, I'm scaling back to write novellas.

I guess it just proves every writer is different, yes? And I think you look sweet in the pic, fangirl!

Martin is one of my literary heroes, but I have to disagree with the metaphor. Saying, "I'm working on a 7-book series" is closer to saying, "One day I want to climb Everest," and as with Everest the devil is in how you approach it. The time a writer spends writing is never wasted, and as stories are as different as mountains there is no one right way to prepare for one. In both mountain climbing and writing there are a number of technical skills you ought to learn before attempting "The Big One," but where you learn those skills is a personal choice. Some climbers hate the gym. Some writers hate short stories. You can learn to climb or write without either. It might take longer, but if the alternative is getting disgusted and walking away, then again it might not.

That said, I wouldn't want to pay a novice climber $65,000 for an Everest permit, and I wouldn't want to pay a novice writer $65,000 for a promise they'll write six more books and finish their story either. ;-)

that awsome pic..
thank


sun is dying..
http://hopeandget.blogspot.com/2011/08/sun-dying-comet-shower-threatens-earth.html

This is why I want you for my agent; you have such great taste!

And though I am writing a six or seven book series, each book also stands alone. None of them need any of the others in order to make sense.

Hey Kristen,

I was right by you in line and I kept thinking, "Gosh, that woman looks familiar. Maybe someone I played Ultimate Frisbee with?" After the Tattered Cover was so specific about how Mr. Martin would not be presenting, it was a delightful surprise that he spoke for half hour and gave great advice!

Attractive agent. Can't say the same about the author. But good-looking and talented only counts if you're a female music star.
Good words of advice. I'll put my 7-book series on hold...

I love the fan look...and the advice.

Great pic! Also some great advice.

I wish I could say I was so bold to run the 7 novel series route. I thought I was extra bold just working on the beginning of my paranormal romance as a stand alone...and I've got a lot of learning to do and growing to do so the advice definitley has credence.

Thanks for sharing :-)

This is SO COOL. And the photo is much better than you think!

I've been choking on a bunch of "what ifs" lately. This is one of them: what if I've already written a series?

Yes, I am one of those series people. I have the first three books written, and the first book is in it's final polishing stages. My synopsis is drafted, my query is sparkling. But, I'm still shaking in my cowboy boots.

The problem is, I'm a new writer. I'm not published. But I write Fantasy. Epic.

I realize that's not a license to indulge in long-winded narrative, or even to create a series. But, alas, my first book IS part of a series.

And it's things like these what if's--what if I have a series, what if I'm a new writer, what if, what if, what if--that make me feel like I'm losing before I even begin. Like I've inadvertently stacked the deck against myself.

I understand and respect this sage advice. I hope since I am choosing not to follow it, because I've already written what I've written, it won't come back to haunt me in the end.

But, then again, it might. And I'll be the wiser for it.

Thank you for sharing.

In my experience as a long time SF/F fan, no fantasy writer alive can write a single book. They all write multiples. I think it's somewhere written on the heavens that they must. Q.E.D.

Also, in some genres there is very little market for short stories. Mr. Martin was/is lucky that in SF/F there is still a (diminishing) market for them. I cannot count the number of greats, such as Heinlein and writers of his stature who got their start writing shorts for the SF magazines, most of which are now sadly gone.

Sound advice and probably one I should heed. My problem is the story that has been hounding me for the last ten years - it simply cannot be squashed into a single book - unless that book is 1,500 pages long! I tend to agree with Deb above who pointed out that Fantasy writers don't do 'short'.

I enjoy reading your rants and am looking forward to meeting you in Australia soon.

There was once a novice writer who set out to write a series of seven books... a British lady, as I recall, writing stories about wizarding folk. Not sure if her series got much notice, though...

I sympathize with the fantasy writers in the group. It seems like almost everything published today, aside from quirky alternative history, is a series. I've also read that if you're at all inclined to self publish, a series is a valuable asset. My first novel (which is basically finished) is naturally the first in a trilogy. I feel like I owe it to myself to finish the trilogy, or at least the second book. I guess I view it this way: if I go the traditional route and someone likes book 1, then book 2 is on the way. If I have to go the indie route and publish book 1 myself, why wouldn't I publish book 2 as close behind the first one that I can? I have several novels in my brain that have nothing to do with my first work, but I'm concerned that if I start one of those, I'll be way behind if I have to go indie on my trilogy.

This stuff ain't easy!

I too was at the signing (although I didn't get a nice photo). I was quite happy with Martin's advice because I've already been following it for three years. On the downside, after writing so many short stories, the idea of a 100,000-word novel is daunting.

Tags are awesome!! And I won't be of any use with the finding of that entry. hehe. I'm a more recent follower!

Do you mean this one?

http://pubrants.blogspot.com/2006/05/recaptop-10-things-id-rather-not-see.html

What if it's the steed who's standing on a high wall in the pouring rain, looking out into the distance at the aftermath of a battle?

Did the people gathering herbs in the forest drink people's blood? Now THAT would be a unique and thrilling opening!

But, seriously, I'd love to hear about a few openings that jumped off the page and hooked you.

You know, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of these openings are inspired by movies. I can see some of these working out really well in a film, but rather poorly in a novel.

How bout a guy selling magic beans. Do you get a lot of those these days? Girl tending Unicorn? Guy whirled back in time? (I still love that one.)

Didn't Diane Wynne Jones have something about eating stew in a fantasy novel?

I think your earlier piece (URL provided by Stephen above) was a little stronger because it briefly discussed why those openings were problematic. The present entry is more of a "don't do this" list--which would-be writers are constantly bombarded with. ("Don't use adverbs! Adjectives are also bad!" and other nonsense.)

Google is your friend.
I typed in "Pub Rants Fantasy Openings" and the link Stephen provided was the 3rd link to pop up.

The book "How Not to Write a Novel" by Howard Mittelmark has some great tips too. Like not giving the reader a description of the main character by having her look at herself in a mirror. Check it out.

sj-drum.blogspot.com

"Status: The subway is getting a little steamy in terms of humidity these past few days."
Amen that. It's getting like NJ Transit, turning down the air to save money.

OH NO! My book totally opens with a variation on one of these. (I'm not telling) I'm need to look into whether or not it really has to open that way. lol.

Agreed. I don't generally write [or read] fantasy, but I have rarely found a prologue I like. Even in books I enjoyed.

Take Eragon, for example. I liked the book as a whole, but the prologue totally confused me. [For those of you who haven't read it, the prologue is this random scene that makes absolutely no sense until at least halfway through the book]. I didn't make the connection between it and Eragon finding Saphira's egg until the end of the story anyway -- it could've easily been incorporated into dialogue between Eragon and Arya.

The prologue in Harry Potter [I can't remember if it was a prologue or just the first chapter, but I know the first bit followed Dumbledore and the rest of the series follows Harry] did work, in my opinion. But that's about the only one.

That being said, Kristin's right -- there are always exceptions. Look at movies. Avatar was pretty much Pocahontas, in space, with blue people. Same old story. But of course, James Cameron is James Cameron and therefore the movie was still awesome.

But if the MC isn't off gathering herbs, how will she escape getting burned with the rest of the village, including her beloved Aunt and Uncle who for some unknown reason won't tell her anything about her parents? She'll never get a chance to stand on the wall of her ruined childhood home and swear to track down the pond sucking scum who destroyed her village, killed her family, and forced her to realize that she does, indeed, have the strength and courage to find the truth. And the wind will never whip her hair around her face either. Gathering herbs is essential.

[blink] But but but... Patrick Nielsen Hayden really liked a story I did a few years back -- it started with the aftermath of a battle. He even said, "Stories like this are the reason I read." (One doesn't forget a statement like that from Patrick Nielsen Hayden. I've having it inscribed on my tombstone.)

Now I'm just confused.

Hilarious, Janice. I agree. Gathering herbs is essential.... or we could just call for more transparency on the part of storytellers. How 'bout a metafiction fantasy that opens: Fikus combed through the forest for the stubborn mushroom heads, not because he knew he would find them, but because he felt some strange urge for mushroom stew. It didn't matter that his entire village was preparing to enjoy the festivities of (insert generic holiday here)--the clouds were rolling in, and Fikus had long ago developed a nose for ominous events. Clouds were one thing. Clouds in the shape of effing trollocs made Fikus worry that he hadn't spent enough time trying to learn how to assume the void (or whatever other Jordan-knock-off-magic the writer has reinvented). He'd found that certain mushrooms made him at least feel like Rand al'thor, if somewhat less skilled.

Wow, the first draft of my novel totally started with number two. :) That is hilarious. Now that I'm on fourth draft the book doesn't begin there and that scene is completely gone from the story. Makes me glad I changed it.

Did you and the editor talk about what they are looking for? I'd be curious to know that too.

Actually, Avatar was a redo of Dances with Wolves.

Or, opening with a discussion about The Chosen One.

Hey, I get that when you're on a quest, you may have to be chosen. But why do we have to open with it? When I read most of these intros is turns the voices in my head I usually hear when I read to static.

(Hey, it's okay to hear to voices. I'm a writer. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.)

Typo much? That should read "it turns". It's too early for me and my minions haven't plied me with coffee.

reading the older post for the first time...darn, my story (adult fantasy) has a portal. and it's introduced in the first page or two. but the portal was created for a reason, if it's creation was partly unintentional, and it's not done as an excuse for awkward and wordy explanations of worldbuilding in conversations with the newly arrived and confused characters.

I guess my reasoning for starting the story there was to start with something interesting happening, and not start with backstory. But perhaps I could start about 15 minutes earlier with the event that created the portal, but that's a dark and violent event and most of the story isn't dark or violent, so i dont want to set the wrong tone for the book by opening with that.

the story also starts with rain, but just a light rain, no horse, and another main character noticing to themselves how gently it's raining.

Comment about Maria Lu’s Legend.
FYI
Legend is listed on the web site www.TheWrap.com along with the Hunger Games, Earthseed, The mortal Instruments and Legend. No mention of the Nelson Agency but it discusses each studio’s interest in each story to tap into the future void of Harry Potter and Twighlight almost done. The embedding came from Twighlightmoms.com to The Wrap. Didn’t know if you knew about it.
Doc
http://www.thewrap.com/movies/article/studios-shopping-young-adult-novels-28316?page=0,0
Checked Lu's site didn't see it mentioned.

lol @ Steve C's "steed on a high wall" etc. Fantastic!

Re: the last comment, Kristin, when it comes to barking up trees, TwilightMOMS.com is the RIGHT one if the Twilight audience is anything your author is interested in attracting. Massive, massive, massive numbers of ladies who love to read and whose loyalty I would give my eyeteeth to harness if I were publishing anything YA right now. They had a spinoff thing a while back called Eve's Fan Garden as well.

@ Margo

Just to repeat Kristin:

"any masterful writer can grab any of these “openings” and do them justice"

So I wouldn't worry too much. Unless its the aftermath of a battle in the pouring rain and everybody gets sucked into a portal. ;)

I'm currently reading Diana Wynne Jones, Tough Guide to Fantasyland. It's a complete catalogue of all the cliches in fantasyland and has me rolling on the floor laughing.

Got to go, my sword is singing to me that it's time for rabbit stew.

*Whew* At least the opening so far isn't going to need to be rewritten...but I haven't read your original post yet.

I love hearing about the things agents/editors get tired of seeing. Narrows down the field a smidgeon ;)

I've definitely read some fantasy novels that started with characters gathering herbs in the forest. Great post.

What about a young witch nailing a backflip? (Her mom was watching from the tower wall) *grin*

www.lesliedeaton.blogspot.com

Thanks for sharing what not to do.

This makes me so sad. I think I have a great and original idea,but I guess not.
Is there any point to writing? (Other than making agents and editors laugh, apparently)

Not exactly openings, but at World Fantasy last year I listened to probably 25 different authors read from their books, and I think I heard this phrase at least 12 times: "Light streamed in through high windows."

I guess that's a good one for you fantasy authors to start avoiding...

It's about time something was done with a cheese sandwich.

In reading all of these posts, I guess the lesson is if you need to be told what not to do, then you're not reading enough. Or, conversely, for the people who are just finding out that their brilliant and unique ideas are not, your novel still isn't a failure. It's just another step forward in your million word apprenticeship. So stop bemoaning the immediate loss of fame and riches and get back to work.

The Hunger Games wasn't a first novel. It wasn't even a second, third, or fifth. Great stories take time. And becoming a great storyteller takes even longer.

Fantasy's my favorite genre, but urgh, whenever I pick up a book that starts out with a prologue, or the whole healer or mage thing, I just...put it back. I want to ask if the author has ever seriously gathered herbs in the forest. Don't most herbs need full sun, anyway? Provided s/he can find these herbs growing in the dark, does said author actually know what to DO with them? I think it would actually be possible to write a gathering-herbs scene if an author actually knew something practical about it instead of it being this mystical part of fantasyland.

Well... in a fantasy novella that I never finished, it opens with the main character -- a young and arrogant wizard -- waking up in the middle of the night to find that his house is on fire. I don't think that's done very often.

("The thought process for dealing with a crisis like this while half asleep proceeds in three stages: 'My house is on fire.', 'My house is on fire?', and 'MY HOUSE IS ON FIRE!!'. I skipped over the first two because a few seconds after awakening, the beam above me cracked and had me quickly rolling off the bed out of the way. That tends to wake a man up.")

Here's a cliche for you: opening with the main character narrating the bullet-points version of his backstory. It's annoying, because you have to put it on paper to solidify these things in your mind, but it bores the reader. I usually wind up writing it in the first draft, that removing it in the second and dispersing the information around the rest of the story. Or just into the ether.

She stood on the wall looking out on the twisted wreckage of her city after the battle and watched the man racing on his horse in the rain, the shadows at his heels and wondered if this was what it was like living in a fantasy novel.

I sadly couldn't fit gathering herbs in there. Maybe she has a garden on top of the wall.

I read a lot. I especially love SF&F and have never come across a book with someone gathering herbs.
Can anyone name a book that does have that?

To David..I do read and continue to read many books. I am not 'bemoaning' any lack of money,but that no one will read my book because the main character is collecting herbs on page one. No matter how well written apparently that will stop editors and agents in their tracks.
To Rose Green- Most herbs grow in the shade. I am well versed in herbs and as my character is Wiccan and a healer it is appropriate to my story.

Was it Killer Openings?

http://pubrants.blogspot.com/2010/09/killer-openings.html

I rifted off of that one so I knew just where to go to find the link.

Anon 1:13, try Google Books. I found some using a search of only books, 21st century, many were non-fiction but I found some fiction in a minute of searching: Taming Her Irish Warrior; Banyan-Keeper of the Trees; Legends: Short Novels by the Masters of Modern Fantasy; Gap Creek; Sanakhou; A Highlander's Homecoming; Comanche Rain.

It isn't that you can't use herb gathering, you just have to make sure your story really stands out from all the others agents and editors are seeing in the queries they receive.

I don't think the problem with these openings is that they've become cliche, the problem is they don't work. A story is supposed to move and a stagnant setting without momentum takes it no where. It's just the writer clearing his or her voice before the story actually starts.

So to use the herb gathering example again, if you attach a sense of urgency to it, you could get a compelling opening. Like what if the character was looking for a specific herb out of panic to use in the antidote that will stop a venomous snake bite from killing her. Add to the the fact the herb itself is dangerous because it's a violent sentient plant that could kill her faster than the poison would. Now you have an effective beginning to your story. There's tension and high stakes, two main ingredients for good storytelling.

It's all in the spinning.

An excess of despair, here. Just because you have an opening that may be cliched, that doesn't mean you can't change it, if necessary.

BTW--I am also well versed in herbs. If you're talking about the standard culinary herbs that most people call herbs, practically none will grow in shade. Rosemary, thyme, savory, etc. will croak in a matter of weeks and certainly will not grow naturally in the standard European forest, unless you make it a very open wood with a Mediterranean climate. Sweet woodruff, from German forests, is an exception.

But "herb" can mean any herbaceous (non-woody) plant with cooking or medicinal uses, and so, yes, there are plenty of herbaceous plants that grow in the forest. Look through an old herbal from the Middle Ages or Renaissance, and you'll see some doozies that no one should ingest, such as Mandragora. Cool legend, though.

Donna

I just want to point out that I love that song. Makes me miss the 90s even harder than I already do, though.

As I've already sent off my first thirty pages to an illustrious agent, I profess I might be guilty of a few problems cited here. My opening starts with a main character sitting on a cliff looking out to sea, and horrors of horrors, it's at the beginning of a prologue (a challenging part of a novel).

However, I'd like to think that what I've written is compelling and totally necessary to my story. As there are many writers who have successfully woven in prologues, I'll hold on to my truth until I hear different.

Well, I recently was told that some of my writing was beautiful in itself, but it was all backstory. So the message was that it wasn't BAD, it was just unnecessary. I think you really have to pick and choose which scenes you absolutely need to advance the story. And maybe have the odd extra bit of decoration in there, but if it's moving THAT slowly then you've got too much decoration.

Just my amateurish thoughts :)

I'll second Trisha's thoughts. Often you can have a really nice, well-written scene, but if it does nothing to move the story forward, it may not be a scene the book actually needs.
I personally don't think *every* scene needs to incorporate the next big event of the plot, but if there's 100 pages with nothing significant happening, the author probably needs to bring out the hedge clippers. Or perhaps even the chainsaw, in some cases!
- Nicholas

I agree, Trisha and Cholisose.

Not only is pacing the hardest thing to explain when it's wrong, but I feel it's the hardest thing to fix at times, too.

Aprilynne Pike gave us pacing advice with her lesson on outlines: http://bit.ly/g7MQwu .

It sounds like they either need to "get there" quicker, so get to the end of the over all arc in 80K words instead of 100K. Or, they need to do more in the words they have - throw in more twists and kinks so you're moving faster in the word count they have.

It's awfully nice of you to read to the end. :)

If the writer is serious about their craft, then they will figure out how to fix the pacing if that is the problem. I know your time is precious and you can't possibly personalize every rejection but as a writer it'd be nice if we knew why sometimes. :)

Last year I attended Debra Dixon's 'Goal, Motivation and Conflict' seminar and the key in that is to have GMC present in every scene - and if it's not, does the scene really belong?

It may be beautiful writing, but is it moving the story forward?
(Wish I could follow my own advice sometimes!)

Often these days it seems that a book must be cut down to the bare minimum with no chaff and a breakneck pacing. I like such books at times, but I think the publishers are failing to recognize that there are still buyers out here who enjoy a relaxing pace, too. Not all of us would have cut out Tolkien's huge prologue and vast amount of description! Why can't the market supply what all of us want? If a book is great other than some slow pacing, perhaps it doesn't need much fixing?

My theory? If it's good enough to keep me reading even when nothing much is happening in the story, then it's a good story. Then again, I've read all but the most recent Jane Auel books, so my tastes may be a bit skewed.

You can say "examine every single scene and cut or rework it if it doesn't move the story." I'd say that's both very simple and (potentially) very transformative.

@ Ted Cross: there's a difference between a "relaxing" pace and an unsteady or halting pace, where the story stops completely in favor of description. You don't have to sacrifice story movement to work in great description.

Slow-paced books sometimes sell well; Guy Gavriel Kay's work, for instance. I think it depends on the book and the writer. If it's done well, slow pace seems to work in fantasy - or some fantasy anyway - but it wouldn't work in a thriller. 100 pages is a dreadful long time for nothing to happen!

I used to tell writers to make sure they blended their characterization and conflict together. That way it's not like getting a spoonful of fruit and then a spoonful of yogurt. Instead if they blend them together, each scene can accomplish two things rather than one.

In other words, some authors get trapped in "this is my scene that moves the plot" and "this is my scene that builds character," but with a little blending, you can have multilayered, multifunctional scenes that move the plot, build character, foreshadow what's to come, and a lot of other things too.

Without having seen the work, it's hard to say what is the right advice for this particular author. But in general, I guess what to tell the writer would be "Get all these scenes to multitask and you can reduce your wordcount by about 15,000 words without losing any content."

I think you should tell them exactly what you've said here, but with a bit more detail.

In other words, there's a problem with the pacing between pages x and y. I'm not sure of the exact cause, but it could be due to a, b, c, or a combination of those.

Thus leaving it to the writer to figure out what they need to do to fix it.

Donald Maass and The Fire in Fiction fixed my pacing issues. The way he talked about microtension and tension clicked with me and it was like the skies parted. Don't know if that will help everyone, or this particular author, but it did for me.

Could you possibly supply the author (and us, if you're up for it?) with a reading list? As in, here are the masters of dramatic pacing; read these stories/books/movies, then go and do likewise? Perhaps leaving the manuscript on the shelf for a few months, the dusting it off and reworking it after such a study? If there's an innate talent there--after all, you're still reading it so it's no drek--then they can probably learn quite a lot that way.

Pond & Cross,

We learn about pacing from reading the masters. Our own reading should inform our concept of pacing. Agents don't necessarily read better than we do. They just advertise that they read a lot.

The thing that Kristin said that most people are missing, "But I'm still reading." This is huge, and often a reason why agents who pass on projects will go on to see that book sell elsewhere.

My advice, and this follows the post of Cross: if the writer can't find an agent, go read JAKONRATH's blog and then self-publish on Amazon. Kristin's preference with pacing is a mix of preference and market/publishing house experience. But WE READERS are the new gatekeepers. Let us decide if we want to read your story. Chances are, if it's good while bucking the trend of current pacing, then it will sell anyways.

Kristing said it herself, she's still reading it.

And people are still reading Austin, Auel, the first Horatio Hornblower book...

I was just thinking this morning of Tad Williams' "Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn" trilogy, which makes Tolkien look downright hasty. :) Beautiful writing is hard to come by these days.

One of my favorite fictional characters has this advice on writing beginnings:

"Begin at the beginning as you understood it, proceed through the middle, continue to the end, and then stop," said Master Li, and he sauntered out to get drunk, leaving me to my current misery. (Barry Hughart, "The Story of the Stone")

I had that problem with my books before I started outlining. I used to just write from beginning to end, and now when I read the books...nothing happens. So I'd give specific advice. "The dialogue is great/shows characters w/o telling, but it has to DO something," or something like this. Or maybe it's lacking dialogue and that could help: "More dialogue relating to plot to remind us where the story is going."

I know if you had my MS, I'd appreciate honest, specific criticism so I'd know how to fix things.

It's very generous of you to keep reading.

And someone asked for an example. Not everyone's genre, but LOIS DUNCAN is an absolute master of pacing (YA horror/suspense). You will never for one second forget where one of her stories is going.

I used some of Janice Hardy's great blog advice when editing my novel recently (yay NLA authors!).

She suggested identifying the conflict and stakes in each chapter. I wrote brief notes about those two items at the top of every one of my chapters. It's amazing how helpful it is to skim those notes and see where things are moving forward, or where you essentially have the same conflict drawn out with nothing new happening. The opportunities for tightening the plot suddenly jumped out at me.

Maybe that's a helpful technique you could recommend.

If I were the writer in question, I'd be happy to get this critique from you. Sure, it would involve a lot of work - research, probably a lot of rewriting from scratch, etc - but clearly they're really close, since you're still reading and you're anxious to give them a few pointers. Saying what you just wrote here with a little more specificity would be a huge help to anyone, I think.

I like Roz Morris's idea of a beat sheet (described here on her website. She even does an example beat sheet of Harry Potter. I actually have not literally made one, but I mentally think something like that through.

While guidance is awesome (especially because the author might not agree with your opinion), if you see the potential and it needs work, throw the ball back int he author's court. Say, "I think this is an interesting concept and good writing but your pacing needs improvement [in this area if you can offer a general point]. If you would like to rewrite and resubmit, I would give it a second pass.

I don't offer to rewrite unless the agent makes the overture. I know how strapped for time they are. But as a serious writer, I will work hard to improve my manuscript even with something as vague as "the pacing is too slow here."

As long as the story is moving within me, it doesn't have to be moving quickly. In my opinion, a good story is one where the characters are memorable and the story is meaningful--whether it is fast-paced or slow. :)

For me, personally, it really helps when the reader indicates exactly what scenes aren't working for them. At what point do your minds start to wander or think, "Where's this plot going?"

I agree slow-paced stories can work, especially in literary fiction, but if this is a commercial genre, the writer should take the readers into consideration.

Pacing is so important to a story but hard to do because it seems to be a feeling a lot of the time.

I learned that slow pacing is solved by making the words work harder. At least, that's how I solve my slow pacing issues.

Every scene in every chapter has to do two of the following things at the same time: develop the plot, develop the character(s), develop the setting, impart needed backstory/foreshadowing. If I can get those same words to do three of the four tasks, even better. Doing all four (five?) at once in the same scene? That's the holy grail.

The more the words work, the less of them I need. That means 1) fewer words to read out-story 2) perceived time in-story also passes faster because the reader is more engaged. (It's the old "time flies" thing. It not just when you're having fun, it also happens when you're busy.)

This is easy to say as an editor/critiquer, but really hard to do as a writer. The easiest way I found to edit myself (and give advice in workshops) is to identify the slow bits and remove 10% of the words in that section, but keep the information intact. I have done multiple cutting runs or just upped my percentage on myself when the first pass wasn't enough. I find removing about 20% of the words in a slow section forces the double duty writing out of necessity. The first 10% just deals with lazy word choices and loose writing. The second 10% gets the information condensed. Really slow sections,can loose about 25% of the words and still make sense.

It only works for fantasies, but when I really love a world, I am happy to linger there lovingly as long as it makes some progress. That progress can be very slow, as long as it is there. For some worlds, I feel terrible when the book finally ends, and I would have been happy to keep reading on and on.

I think this blog post is a good start. As others have said, tell the writer to really examine each scene and determine what it is doing for the story vs. what it should be doing. If it's just there to "build character" or something like that, the writer needs to figure out how to achieve the same effect while advancing the plot. Or it could just be a case where the author is too wordy, and tightening up each scene to its core will make things seem to move faster.

(V's comment above is amazing, btw!)

Ha, this is the exact same comment my writing group gave me just last week. . .

I like V's comment about "making the words work harder."

There are two techniques that no-one has yet mentioned that I find critical to judge pacing:

1) Put it away for a while. A few weeks away from the manuscript almost always allows you to view it with fresh eyes. Pacing is one issue that will really jump out at you after a break.

2) Read it out loud - 1st to yourself - make fixes; then read it to an audience. If your audience isn't excited when you read the exciting bits you have problems.

If an agent sent a manuscript back to me with the comments K makes above, these two steps would be the first things I did to focus on the problems.

Sometimes we get caught up in the world we build (fantasy or not, the world of our novel is at best a reflection of the real world). We are, after all, the first audience of our writing. We fall in love with it as much as the people who populate it and their travails and journeys.

On that 2nd edit through our work, I think it is imperative to ask the question: is this important? We can ask the same of all our tertiary characters, listless dialogue, entire chapters, and of course the blocks of prose that do not move the plot or move the heart.

It is this part of the editing process that becomes difficult. How do we make such huge cuts to our baby? How can we be so cruel to ourselves as to slash away all those passages full of beautiful words, gorgeous images and thoughtful reminisces?

The thing we must keep in mind is that if we want our audience to be wider than merely ourselves, we must create that which can be digested by many. Our creation can contain pithy moments as well as provocative ones. It can be descriptive, but needs to move.

In fact, it is my theory that most all great or popular works of fiction contain some sort of movement: psychological, geographical, or situational.

Maybe recommend a good book. That way if the author is serious they will make the effort to learn and fix. Then if they submit again you will know they are hardworking and dedicated to improving. That's just me, but I'm not an agent with piles of queries and manuscripts to read, lol.

I'm with the first Nicole -- it sounds like the issue in this case is conflict/stakes, not individual scenes (although the advice others have offered about tightening could be helpful too). But even if you just tell the author what you told us, s/he should be able to look at the ms through that lens and possibly identify a fix you hadn't even thought of.

I think the most helpful large-scale feedback for writers is simply when a reader points out where they lost interest or where they were confused. That simple criticism always helps me to see my manuscript with new eyes and ideas for improvement always follow.

I do think a slow pace can work beautifully for some authors -- I agree about Guy Gavriel Kay, and I'd add CJ Cherryh and also, say, McKinley's Pegasus.

But if pacing is indeed a problem for a particular book, the instruction to fix it could simply be: Cut 20,000 words(or whatever). Then leave it up to the author to decide how to tighten it up. Poof! Pacing improves.

Or at least, that's how my agent gets me to fix pacing issues, and it works for me.

I am an editor -- I became really excited about this post because pacing is the #1 thing that I work on and look for in submissions (and it's also the thing I am best at editing). For authors that I have decided to take on -- and who I feel are skilled enough to deal with the pacing issues -- I do two things. First, I point out why something isn't working, and secondly, I give concrete suggestions for how to get it to work (which they may or may not decide to use, but which get the ball rolling).

This sounds like a rewriting job where things would have to be combined; characters that are unnecessary may have to go, as well as scenes and details. It's developmental/substantive editing, and some writers aren't confident enough for this. If I am not taking on the author and just want to send a positive rejection letter, then I will just vaguely suggest that the writer may want to consider combining some scenes that could be doing more things at once.

Alternatively, this may not be a "too many scenes issue." Sometimes just cutting some description, exposition, and dialogue can do the trick; if each scene is shortened enough, then the time between each subsequent scene is shortened as well, picking up the pace. But as a rule, all scenes should be doing many things at once: developing character, plot, setting, etc.

I recently started reading a book for critique - the first 50 pages was really interesting (needed work but interesting), the next 50 the characters went to a concert and then grocery shopping. I couldn't get past it. It was pointless and I couldn't get the author to take my critiques seriously so I stopped reading. I was maybe 1/4 of the way through but the story was already falling apart. Sounds like you still have a good story and perhaps you will find a way when you finish to give good advice to the writer.

I love posts like this that tell us the positive and negative. The story and writing are good, but the pacing is off. I find this helpful!

Seems like it would be easy to just say to the author, "I like this but you have a pacing issue. The story takes too long to unfold (or slows down during the middle/end, or whatever)." If someone told me that, I'd know exactly what to look for and how to start fixing it. Pacing is a hard issue to define, but once you know pacing is the issue, it's not too hard to address it--successfully, I hope. :)

Thanks @ idempotent
Just bought Roz Morris's book on kindle and can't wait to read it.

Taking a second bit of the cherry here:

Whether you call them 'beats' or 'the gap' (Thanks Robert McKee) or turning points, a story needs to move forward - I keep a visual of a staircase in mind - with discoveries and obstacles along the way, whether they be physical or philosophical. Things still need to happen.

To me, that's when the pace drops off. Nobody is discovering anything new in the world, or within themselves, and it goes around in circles.

What Silvia and Liesl said. Where were you when it first occurred to you that "This is slow"?

I liked Plot and Structure by James Scott Bell...

Good on ya for keeping reading.

And thanks to all the commenters - all wonderful ideas.

Point them toward 'Save the Cat' the best guide I've found to help a writer address underlying structural issues like pacing. There's other advice out there, but this was what worked for me.

If the overall story is okay, the pacing can be fixed. Perhaps suggest a few scenes that you felt that way about and it could help the author see how to fix the story. That kind of advice would help me.

While I'm sure all the recommendations of this book or that might be fine among peers, on Twitter as a review, or even as a blog post with an explanation of why you recommend it, if an agent included a recommendation to buy a book as part of his/her rejection, it would damage my perception of that agent's integrity.

The book suggestions might be good. Also Lani Diane Rich has structure class occasionally (online, with live chats) that could be helpful as well. (www.storywonk.com)

If there really is a diamond under there, it would be nice for the author to be given ideas for how to uncover and polish it.

Check out some Jacqueline Carey if you have pacing concerns. If the story is sound and the writing is good, the pacing isn't a concern.

I wonder if the problem isn't commercial dynamics? So much pressure for these shorter books (200 pages). I wonder if Kristin isn't feeling this isn't bad but commercially????? Needs some pep or needs some cuting. I agree with Ebony about GMC. Ask at each chapter beginning, middle and finish if this meets GOAL, MOTIVATION and CONFLICT. Does it move my story along? Can the book live without it? idempotous post on Roz Morris site for specific "cookie cutter" system to move a book along is probably good but very cookie cutter. Again, maybe because of commercial needs? I wonder if when Kristin gets a book like this one she could choose a few of her writers to read it for comment? Obviously Kristin is very good, that's why we are here. But maybe a second opinion might make room for some of those good books but not number one sellers! I know I would be happy if she asked permission to have others read my book sitting on the chopping block!

Invaluable insight, Kristin, as you always provide time and again. I find that your lists, like this one, help tremendously.

Dito to what Michael said.

I do wonder, though: how can you tell after two paragraphs or pages, that the story starts in the wrong place? I would have pegged that as something you realize as the story progresses.

Honestly, awkward physical descriptions are starting to be a personal pet peeve of mine, especially when they're from the first person p.o.v. I've been workshopping a bunch of stories for class lately, and I can't tell you how many people feel the need to interrupt any action with physical description... or, alternately, they think we need to know it in paragraph one. It seems like whether your character has short hair or long could've waited until at least page 2.

Rose

I wish you would do that for a week or so here -- let us submit two pages to you and have you tell us why you would stop. I have gotten all these rejections that just say 'well written' and 'close' but nothing that gives me any helpful feedback.

I love retweeting your posts. You give excellent, succinct advice.

Yes, thank you for the list. With all that pressure on those first few pages, it's so easy to snap and start squashing them full of flowing locks of golden hair and exciting thesaurus easter eggs.

Great list! Thanks for the advice!

Saw a few too many "I brushed my chin-length auburn hair out of my blue eyes." Didja?

Doing a few rounds of "opening" critique doesn't entail nearly as many examples as an agent has to go through in a day, but I'm still amazed at how many of those include "descriptive" lines like that.

At least you weren't inundated with dream sequences (or is 2 pages short enough that the dreamer wouldn't have woken yet?"

Thanks very much for this. Physical descriptions of characters? I started skipping them when I was a kid, and haven't read one since.

This sounds very harsh but a great opportunity. This is why critique groups are so important not only do they help us make a better story and better writers but they help us toughen up a little as well. Thanks for the information.

Great post. Thank you!

Useful list! I wonder, though, if there is a place one can find examples of such things. For example, what is "awkward"? -- it would help immeasurably to see examples where all the containing errors are listed. It could help to identify such in my own writing.

I printed the list. Dangit. As I brushed my chin length auburn hair (not) out of my sparkly eyes and sipped lukewarm decaffeinated orange tea and listened to the garbage trucks outside and the birds tweet and I ate an energy bar... oh yeah, where was I?

And yet, I've read numerous published books, and am currently reading a "bestseller" right now that has at least 6 of the 10 listed mistakes and that author is a multi-millionaire.

I'm not saying a writer shouldn't learn as they go and get better. But find everything on this list all the time in books -- including the ones this agency represents. I think people like voice and they'll pretty much forgive anything else.

I've seen this kind of workshop (and even panels) at a number of conferences that I've attended, and I found them to be hideously cruel and unhelpful because...well...they weren't you.

Rather, the agents became their own version of a literary mosh pit and cut the writing to shreds while offering zero constructive criticism. It was painful to watch the tears flow from the authors' eyes.

The feedback I would hear in my own seminars compelled me to say something to conference organizers. Authors didn't spend hundreds of dollars to be insulted - which they were.

In my experience, you are the only person for whom I would say should do this workshop because I've never seen you be cruel to anyone.

I was there! It was one of my favorite sessions, I just wish it could have lasted longer. Thanks for doing it, though. It was very informative (even if mine didn't get picked).

Very good...

I'd like to know, if you have time, is there a way to learn how to write great keywords?

Thanks for the great post. I'll put your list in my writing tips.

@Anne A--an 'awkward' physical description is any at all in the first 2 pages.

Or that's my understanding. I can't stand lengthy physical descriptions of people, especially if clothing is included. And especially in the first chapter, or if it's just stuck in there to let the reader know what the character looks like and has nothing to do with the scene, or...you get the idea.

My critique partners always call me out on not describing my characters. Oh, am I supposed to do that? I dont like to read it, so I dont usually include it. But I suppose readers want to know that stuff. But please, no more than a sentence or two, or I'll start wondering what I should eat for lunch.

Have you ever done (or considered doing) a workshop at the Portland Wordstock? It's every year in October, and I personally would sign up for your workshop in a heartbeat.

I first learned about Wordstock in 2009, when Sarah Rees Brennan and Scott Westerfeld spoke at it. (I have signed copies of their books!)

If you could fit it into your schedule, that would be amazing. Frankly, it would also be an unexpected delight, as I know how busy you are.

http://www.wordstockfestival.com/

To Pia, who asked how you can tell that a story starts in the wrong place after just a few paragraphs:

Once you get a good grasp of story structure--and this goes for any kind of story, not just a novel--you start to see things you never could before.

I highly recommend Blake Snyder's Save the Cat screenwriting books, which explain structure beautifully. Don't worry about the fact that he's talking about screenplays. A story is a story is a story.

Blake died in 2009, but his wonderful advice lives on.

Paula B.
The Writing Show

What a wonderful idea for a workshop... I would -love- to participate in something like that. You should go to WorldCon this August and do it again. Eh? Eh?

Great post, Kristin. I believe that the biggest issue for writers is craft. Areas that we are weak in are like blind spots. Because they are weak, they can be hard to identify without outside help.

@Lena - thanks! I'm afraid my problem is an "awkward" description is any I write... Like you, I leave them out entirely, then things crash halfway through the book when some physical characteristic is important for another character's reaction. Sigh. I then go back and try to stick it in before the reader has formed too much of a mental image, but it always looks like a giant sore thumb.

Actually, I suppose what would be awesome would be examples of contrasting "good" and "bad" versions of such issues...

My main character is described aesthetically in the very first sentence of my upcoming first novel.

Three reasons why I left it in:

1) My writerly friends quote it around when asked for good first sentences.
2) A very picky reader (someone I never expected to like the book) stole my mum's copy of chapter one after happening to glance at it.
3) I try to pull the rug out from under the reader immediately.

Here is its current form, for your perusal and critique.

"Maybe, of a moment: ratty brown hair parted heavily to the left that almost curled but only managed to look uncombed and slightly greasy, grey cups of skin between cheek and eye, black woollen stockings, short boots with buttons on the side, stripey jumper dress, cocaine habit, love letter crumpled in hand, feathery long fingers."

I want in on this workshop so baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad! I need something like that for ms. Thanks for posting!

Kristin,
Can you tell us what workshops or conferences you will be at coming up? Can anyone else recommend any good conferences?

Fabulous post, thank you. I read a lot of short stories and first chapters on critique forums, and I usually know within a paragraph that the story isn't good enough for publication (or, sometimes, that it is). In my opinion, any writer that reads twenty novel openings by other unpublished writers will have their eyes opened in a similar way.

And now I get to go and play with my current WIP first page, yay!

Louise Curtis

Even for those of us not at the workshop, it's always great to have a list of things to watch out for, so thanks!

@Alice--

"Maybe, of a moment:

I have no clue what that means, or how it relates to the description.

The description itself is interesting, though I'd suggest putting the love letter last in that list. It strikes me as the important part--what everything else is leading up to.

@Beth

"Maybe" is the character's nickname.

Wonderful!!
This is the kind of post that I want to keep bookmarked to refer back to when doing edits. It's nice to have a list to refer to sometimes.
Thanks Ms. Nelson :)

Alice, you wanted a critique, so here goes:

It exemplifies culprits 3, 5, and 6. The stuff about the hair really needs tightening (3). The paragraph is an awkward physical description of the character (5), and it's overly flowery (6), as if you're trying too hard to write cool, pretty phrases instead of letting the story unfold.

And as someone else noted, the paragraph should end on the punchy love letter part rather than the ho hum finger description.

The bit about the cocaine habit is telling instead of showing. And it really should be shown (culprit 1). It's much more interesting to read a scene in which we discover for ourselves that a character needs and does coke than to be told she has a cocaine habit. Plus the cocaine habit phrase is jarring (and not in a good way) in a paragraph devoted to physical description.

There are some lovely, unique phrases in your first paragraph, but they're not great enough to let you break the rules.

Great post, as always.

On a totally different note, I'll be in Denver this wk & am having coffee w/Karen DeGroot at Starbucks Park Meadows Friday morning. If you can join us, that would be great. Email me or Karen if you're free. All best, Debbie. [email protected]

Thanks for posting the list, it's very helpful. I'm going to bookmark it for future reference.

Alice, I have to agree that "cocaine habit" doesn't really fit with a physical description. Maybe you could reference the track marks on her arms or something (or is that heroin? I'm not really up on illegal drugs). Or maybe there's a crack pipe hanging out of her pocket. What I mean is, that would be showing us she's a cocaine addict instead of just saying it.

"Anonymous said...
And yet, I've read numerous published books, and am currently reading a "bestseller" right now that has at least 6 of the 10 listed mistakes and that author is a multi-millionaire.

I'm not saying a writer shouldn't learn as they go and get better. But find everything on this list all the time in books -- including the ones this agency represents. I think people like voice and they'll pretty much forgive anything else.

8:06 AM"

Amen. Thanks for pointing this out. I recently saw a book that sold for $500,000 plus to a major publisher that starts with the MC describing herself and tons of telling from the beginning.

@Everyone

Thanks for the feedback! I'll bear it in mind as the piece goes into editing.

These are great tips for what to try not to do. And even though the list is long, it's encouraging to know we can learn not to make these mistakes. I'd love to be at a conference with you or Sara.

Incredibly useful, thanks.

I think I understand what is meant by #9, but not 100% certain. Can someone elaborate or provide an example?

Character description in the first 2 pages can work well if written unobtrusively and without the laundry list technique. Good description of anything will be worked into the narrative, not placed on a pedestal with red arrows pointing at it to say "look at me!" That's the mark of an amateur.

The problem with description in general is that it stops the forward momentum of a story. Pauses are good in the right places, but probably not a great way to start things out. IMO.

It really saddens me that a lot of great literature probably gets tossed to the wayside because modern agents are so obsessed with "hooks." I have read so many books lately that have a catchy beginning and then completely lose it in the middle.
If you go back and read classics like East of Eden - they all start out a little slow and meandering. John Steinbeck wouldn't have had a chance these days - and that is a real shame.

Thank you for sharing this list.

I love this approach! And for those of us who don't have an opportunity to do a two-page read-aloud to an agent, it might be a good exercise for a writing group. Although an agent's input would be invaluable, even just hearing that you "lost" your readers so early n the game might help point out some flaws.

Kristin, as one of the authors at your "Agent Reads the Slush Pile" session, (and one whose page was read,) I will admit to a bit of trembling as the session began. But your analysis of each manuscript, though firm and to the point, was fair and helpful. Throughout the conference, I was impressed by your "tough advice," laced with enough compassion that your support of new writers was evident. Thanks so much!

Only sixty miles away from me, and I never knew it. Sigh. It would have been interesting. I wonder how long it takes an agent to be able to judge by the first couple paragraphs whether or not a story will work? A few months? A few years?

Hope you had fun, that conference sounds like it would have been a blast.

Jodi

Anonymous 9:20 AM wrote: "I think I understand what is meant by #9, but not 100% certain. Can someone elaborate or provide an example?"

I imagine it is dialogue that does not multi-task. Such as show the voice but also have tension in it or move along the plot or show something about the character. But that is just my take. In general, dialogue in writing has to be cooler than in real life, that is, it has to have more meaning to it.

Jodi

I'll comb through my first two pages as soon as I finish typing this! Brutal honesty is what writers really need sometimes. Thanks for the list! :)

@Anon, above

“It really saddens me that a lot of great literature probably gets tossed to the wayside because modern agents are so obsessed with ‘hooks.’ I have read so many books lately that have a catchy beginning and then completely lose it in the middle.”

I think what Kristin is referring to is primarily genre fiction – not literary fiction, which has rules of its own. If you look at the opening of “The Mysteries of Pittsburgh,” the opening page breaks almost every one of these rules. And yet it’s brilliant; it draws the reader in slowly, tenuously. I’m in the process of revising my own opening pages. I had to forget a lot of what I learned from the authors with whom I studied. I’m writing to a different readership.

But, ITA. I am not fond of hooks either, which is why I’m so bad at them. I have a pile of books filled with clever hooks that fell apart on the third or fourth page for one reason or another (there are, however, also many exceptions to the rule).

I would really love to submit the first two pages of my book at a workshop like that. I just finished it and although I've had people read the first part of it and they keep asking to read the rest. I would love to hear what a profesional has to say.

Thanks for the advice
Ollie

as a newbie writer just creeping out from behind my shell this list was very helpful, and it will be a helpful guidepost on the journey towards a solid novel. keep the advice coming, and thanks for taking the time to help.
douglas esper

Terrific insight. I hope I have the chance to attend one of these workshops at some point! (Or, as Ted suggested, perhaps you could allow a few brave souls to have their work examined here.) :)

Ms Nelson:

I wondered if you had read Franzen's "Freedom." It seemed to me that that award-winning writer pretty much violated all your rules here. And having reviewed it for Amazon, I would say it is pretty disappointing when there are so many aspiring writers who deliver a better product.

It is a great idea to have some young readers critique a manuscript. I did that for the manuscript of my current middle grade novel and it's amazing what they hone in on! They were dead on recognizing when the voice was too adult.

I wonder if young adults then are able to write a more true-to-voice young adult novel. Although their actual writing may not be as practiced or particular as an adult author's, it might be surprising. I'm continuously frustrated with adults trying their hand at resurrecting the teenager they remember being for their story, often times overlooking true shades of self-awareness that many young adults do posses.

I'm a teen writing for teens, and it's funny because I have never had a problem with this! I'm really glad - I can understand how it would be difficult. I have read a lot of books where it was obvious the author had forgotten what it was like to be a teenager.

I don't know much about the YA genre, but when I think of novels that really captured a teen voice, I think of The Rachel Papers, by Martin Amis and The Perks of Being a Wallflower, by Stephen Chbosky.

I'm running into this issue right now. I wrote my first novel as adult, but its prequel has two main characters who are young teens, so I need to authentically adjust the voice. I hope I can pull it off.

Great topic for this post. While I do have this problem sometimes, it's only a small issue at the moment. I didn't plan to write YA per say, but that is where one mutant series happens to fall.

What has helped I think, for me, is that during the long two years it took to figure out how to write the first draft I was also volunteering at a drop-in center for teens. I spent 3 hours or so a week with them. Oddly, most thought I was one of the teens the whole time even though we had to be 21+ to volunteer. And lucky enough, they are the teens I'm writing about in the later book of the series because it was a center for glbtq teens.

For others I think part of the issue I see is that people see it going well and think they should write a YA novel instead of writing it because that's what the story/characters should be, which can make it tough. But it's something that can be worked on if the problem can be pin pointed. I have to figure out some speech still since my MC probably wouldn't say something is "neat". Not a bad thing to fix compared to other potential manuscript killers.

Reading tons of YA novels is the best way to understand the YA voice. I've found it to be a huge help.

I had the opposite problem with the first draft of my adult novel--people said the 23-year-old narrator's voice was "too YA." That's when I realized I needed to write YA.

Now I have an idea for another adult novel, but having written three YAs--with one already published and successful--I worry about the steep learning curve to go back to adult fiction.

Ha ha, I have the opposite problem--I [attempt to] write adult but come off sounding YA. Maybe I should make the switch, no? XD

Recently, I started a writer's group after my move to a new state. One of the critiquers is a teen. I can not emphasize enough how valuable she has been to our work. I have made great strides in revamping my story because of her. And I tried not to take all her advice, but I knew she was spot on right.

I've come across a similar issue in my critique group where an adult-geared story features a child and the dialogue or thoughts just don't sound like any child I've ever met - they're too wise, too precocious, too adult to be a believable 5 or 9-year old.
Miriam

Tricky. What about the category "New Adult" that I've seen popping up lately in blogs and articles? The group of newly graduated college students who are just stepping out in life - naive yet definitely more experienced than your typical Teen. The voice would still be young, they would still use some of the slang/language they used in college, but a lot of the high school drama & angst might be gone. This is the audience I think I am writing for. (And wishing I was still that age.) :)

I've had trouble finding critiquing for this issue. I don't think I struggle with it that much, mostly because I spend a lot of time with teens volunteering at my church, read YA constantly, and am still young enough that I was a teen not too long ago. But I still wondering if I'm getting the voice right. I've come across a few books that the voices just don't sound like teens. Instead they sound like mini adults masquerading as teenagers. It's a hard thing to get right and do well.

My children are teens which helps enormously and yes I had some teens, male and female read my YA manuscript. Both gave the voice a thumbs up which was a great relief especially as not only is my main character from a different generation, he is also a different gender to me :)

Not only is there a danger of having a teen think in a too adult way, there is also the temptation to try and be too teen, overcooking the dialogue and cultural references.

If they were good manuscripts though, wouldn't you just take the client on with the stipulation that you'd market it as adult fiction instead of YA?

I'm pretty sure that's not a difficult mind-set to change.

I agree with Jiliann, a good manuscript is a good manuscript -- surely.

The other difficulty is that trying to dumb down with teenage slang becomes boring and trite. It has to be in the simplicity of expression and world view. Rowling used very little slang.

Regarding language, the Flesch-Kincaid Readability Test is a good start.

Even so, If you're writing for 14 plus, there are some *very* savvy kids out there.

I've thought a lot about this point, and I'm not sure there really is A YA voice. It depends who's writing about whom and what and when and where. If it's a present day American teen recounting his or her recent life, maybe. But, even then, teen voices vary just as much as children's or adult's.

My WIP, for example, is set centuries in the future on a colony planet, in a society consciously, but inaccurately, modeled on 1930s New York City. The mistakes are part of the fun. Like his world, my young MC is less mature than a present day American teen in some ways, but more in others. For example, he is quite articulate, but not tremendously reflective. I write from the POV of that MC, a cub reporter, and his account is edited by his newspaper (though not to the point of falsification) and read and criticized by other characters at times.

Though very different in many respects, TREASURE ISLAND is one of my influences, a novel clearly aimed at boys, as its famous opening poem declares, but which makes little concession to any notion of age-specific voice, and is clearly implied to have been written by Jim Hawkins years after the adventures he describes. Like that Jim, my MC (also called Jim) plays an important role in an expedition, but is also an observer/narrator of the doings of others, and is not the leader of the expedition.

I will continue to classify my WIP as YA Steampunk, and it fits the category better than some, but I am really writing for children of all ages!

Interestingly, this is my daughter's primary complaint with books written for teens. She is 15 and able to spot a fraud a mile away. She often says that books she reads should've been critiqued by someone her age so the author could be told they were way off with how kids REALLY talk these days. I offer her up to YA writers within my chapter. :-)

Here is some further analysis:

Evolving Voice in the Young Adult Novel

http://tinyurl.com/2e2wrr3

Would you then suggeset that teen writer's would be best at writing young adult novels, seeing as it's their perspective that they're writing from? I suppose not a lot of teens write decent books, but even still, I can hardly name three authors who are teens that have written YA books...

Okay. Occasionally great YA books are coming out with great voice, but I see too many YA books with a YA voice that drivels off the page. Where have all the intelligent YA books gone? I’d love to see an end to books that mimic contemporary teenage thought processes. Because when they’re watered down, I think they actually do more harm than good. I know teenagers who won’t look at books like FEED or ENDER’S GAME and certainly not THE CATCHER IN THE RYE because they have become too accustomed to the dessert-like prose of this and that vampire academy or other YA paranormal/contemporary/etc.

Which leads us to authors who know some teenagers who are still smart and write intelligent characters. I’d hate to see these manuscripts being passed over because they are ‘intelligent’ YA. I think the real question explores where the crossover begins between YA and adult fiction. Teen characters shouldn’t make adult decisions, but isn’t character behavior part of the fantasy, the fictional dream, that some characters will act in extraordinary ways? I don’t know many adults who would have acted like Horatio Hornblower, but that doesn’t stop him from being one of the most beloved characters of all time. And I don’t know of anyone who held up their finger and said, now wait a minute, this guy is just too smart, too brave for me to believe he’s an adult.

This is part of what’s wrong with YA. Want YA voice? Add angst. But of course, angst is a cliché, too. But as much as agents pretend to eschew clichés, we still see them all the time. A friend of mine was at a writer’s conference where the agent just finished lecturing about how she passes on manuscripts with clichés. Then an hour later that agent read one of her author’s works. And guess what? Yup. Goosebumps ran down someone’s spine.

Okay. Sorry for the rant. But, man…
Otherwise, love the blog. Thanks for putting in the effort.

Could not agree more with David T. That's exactly my sense of it.

Ender's Game is a great example of a sassy, clever, intelligent voice that is hardly YA in nature.

A lot of adults have trouble with understanding the difference between *intelligence* and *experience.* So, they'll read a Young Adult novel and rip apart the protagonist because she's, they say, *stupid* and a *wimp.* And then they decide to write a YA novel with a smart and capable heroine. And it bombs, and they can't understand why.

The cure? 1) Go read Young Adult fiction with an open heart and mind. 2) Hang out with real teens, but just sit there, keep your mouth shut, and just listen.

If you don't thoroughly *enjoy* doing those two things, then writing YA is not for you.

P.S. I second everyone who said to get teenage critique partners!

When I say intelligence, not only am I speaking about cliched decision making, weak prose, and knock knock dialogue, I'm also talking about overall plot structure.

I know many adults who bomb at YA need to be around kids more, but as a teacher for the last decade, I'd say I've shut up around kids more than most people in this discussion.

TANGERINE is a great YA book that allows the protagonist to be a teen while also managing to give the reader something more to chew on. THE OUTSIDERS is the same way. And students love these books.

But too many books nowadays pale in comparison. Just yesterday I picked up a book a student was reading and I wanted to say, Oh my god, you're reading this? But they don't know the difference between quality and excrement. Because too many agents and authors have jumped the YA bandwagon, and are too busy shoveling it.

I do know what Kristin means when she describes the problem of YA voice. That's not my issue. My issue is with people who don't understand what a YA book really is, and then try to write another sarcastic, angst-ridden, insipid story.

That helps no one.

Chris Crutcher, Cormier, and even, more recently, Sherman Alexie.

Intelligent.

Thanks for the excellent topic. I find I am always struggling when I try for a YA voice, but a middle-grade voice comes naturally to me. I sometimes wonder whether that means a certain part of my world view stopped maturing at age 12...

Yeah, nobody wants to read about a hyper-capable teen who's a crack shot with a bow and can take care of her family even in a collapsed, dystopian society. Why, she doesn't even care about romance or girly things. Terrible teenage voice. That'll never sell. (Re: Katniss, in The Hunger Games, of course.)

I just have to say thank you so much for posting these. I already visit sites like Query Shark, Evil Editor, and Absolute Write to learn more about writing and revising query letters. But it's so nice to have a more concrete list of things to avoid.

Ditto Yttar's comment. This post and the last one were incredibly helpful.

I agree with Yttar and Sarah. I have a clear idea of what not to do now, and it's helped me so much already.

Thanks.

Wow, these are great tips, thanks so much for posting them! I'm especially guilty of the last one--or rather, I try to include the names of things AND explanations for them, and end up with a query letter two pages long. Learning to just cut those references entirely was one of the hardest lessons I had to learn about pitch-writing!

Ditto!

I nailed three on this list (last three). I was far too vague, and the lack of info created more confusion than too much would have.

I can't emphasise how valuable this critque has been. I''m so close to nailing it this time. Maybe.

Thanks again!

Where does one find out about these web events?! Guess I need to sign up for your newsletter, Kristin.

It is awesome that you took the time to critique Pitches from all the attendees.

It was nice to have a list of turn offs in fantasy pitches. Knowing that will help significantly when the time comes to query for me. Thanks!

As a tax accountant I have to say the day you get to visit one of us is a good day...for us. :)

Your posts are a wonderful. Next time I query an agent I will be much better prepared.

Is having similar tastes in music enough to say I think Kristin would be the perfect agent for me? Today is Sade, my MS has a scene that includes Sade's haunting 'Maureen' where the protagonist knows he's dying the next day, and a kooky character name Maureen wants him to hear her theme song. If only I could get Kristin to read the rest!!!

Quill, Kristin mentioned the workshop on her blog, but it was also announced through Writer's Digest's free email newsletter. Sign up for that as well and you'll be informed about all their upcoming webinars.

Again, the webinar was awesome, and the pitch feedback I got was both helpful and encouraging. Too bad I'm only in the planning stages of my novel. I wanted to start submitting immediately. :) It's a lot of anxiety off my shoulders knowing I have a good pitch when i also actually have the book.

Thanks Kristin - I'm getting ready to query and have written a rough draft of querying that contains at least one of these, I'm sure! I can't tell you how helpful your blog is for a first-time novelist who has no clue how this business works.

great stuff. #5 in particular drives me nuts in book jacket blurbs as well.

This is solid gold info, thanks for sharing :)

How do you feel about an opening that is somewhat floating regarding world building, but answers the questions the reader has on page 3 from a different POV?

Is 2 pages of disorientation okay, or should it just be anchored from the get-go?

Number 3 made me laugh out loud. Thanks for this. I'll take any and all help I can get!

Thanks for sharing more helpful tips on how to make our queries better. I know I suffered from not describing my world enough (at all). It's hard to know what to focus on in the pitch. Even rereading your examples, which were excellent, I still feel like I'm struggling. And I'm a lawyer and write letters everyday with ease. Why can't I get this right? Thanks for all your help.

BTW, Sarah's live chat on WriteOnCon was so helpful too.

Thank you so much for these last two posts! So helpful!!

Thanks for sharing the list. I was at the Webinar and received a very helpful critique from you or Sara. I totally agree that the pitch paragraphs are extremely difficult to craft right. I know mine's not there yet and I have spent umpteen hours on it. But I'll keep working on it until it's right. Feedback from you and my critique partners will hopefully help get it to where it won't get a rejection.

Slightly off topic... I have a question about Reason #2.

Kristin just listed the top 9 tropes of the genre. Take unexpected birthright for instance. Off the top of my head: Harry Potter, Luke Skywalker, Rand al Thor, Belgarion, Bella Swan (her blood) etc. Take mysterious object. Again, off the top of my head: Bilbo and Frodo Baggins, Lyra Belacqua, Richard Rahl (who actually falls under the birthright category as well...)

My point, or question, is: Kristin, are you telling us to NOT use those plot devices whatsoever? Or are they alright as long as there is an original angle to the story, like you stress in Reason #7?

Because if no author should use those tropes any longer, that would almost be the same thing as creating another genre...

Oh no - my young adult SF has both "The main character as the key to saving the world or species" AND androids with hearts made of varying materials!

Shucks. What if I add a few more inciting incidents? Say, like, five? Then I should be better off, right?

Kidding... mostly.

Thank you so much for my critique, it was very helpful!

RE: Reason #4: If It does combine fantasy with some other element (mystery, thriller, spy in my case), what should we do?

I'm with you, Bran Flakes. If you throw out those tropes, that's a huge chunk of the genre -- past, present, and future. Maybe what she meant to say was she doesn't want to see those tropes done poorly? Not sure.

My take on it is it's not about whether those tropes are present, but rather if they are being pitched as the story's main *hook*. If there's nothing compelling to lift the story beyond the 'I've seen this before' elements, then your story won't feel fresh.

To take the Harry Potter example - I would bet the editor at Bloomsbury who did pick it up did so more based on things like Wizard School(!) than the idea that Harry was both special and orphaned (more familiar aspects).

What Iac582 said--it's about putting a new twist on things so that your book stands out as different.

Thanks for posting the list! It was quite helpful, and now I know what not to do.

Number 2 just cut your submissions in SFF down by about 80 percent.

Not that I agree with it. Plenty of room for artistic variation there.

I participated in the webinar, and it was a great experience. Thanks for critiquing all of us, Kristin and Sara!

Now if you'd just be kind enough to offer a webinar on SF&F synopsis writing, I could get my package together and start querying in earnest. *g*

This is awesome :) Thank you so much for sharing. Now, if only writers like me could start to see this in their own work...

Thanks to Kristen and Sara! The comments I got back were so helpful. There's nothing like knowing what an agent is thinking as they read your work. Invaluable!

As you no doubt know, this is a list I definitely needed to read! Querying is not my strong suit and something I most certainly must work on. Thanks for this advice! :D

Kristin, I hope you don't mind a promo plug here, but since you mentioned writers need feedback from a variety of sources, I thought maybe we could help out with links for those who are disconnected from the greater community.

There are lots of terrific critique sites out there and most everyone has a crit group to provide feedback. However, for those who don't have a support group and don't know of one, may I recommend Evil Editor? He can be a bit brutal and he goes for the jugular to wring out some laughs for the critique, but the advice is spot on AND everyone's query gets critiqued in a fairly timely fashion unlike other sites such as Query Shark. In fact, Evil Editor just recently put out a call for queries to critique as his queue is getting low.

Plus (or instead if his humor is a bit too intimidating for you), once you revise based on Evil Editor's advice and the feedback of his Minions, he tosses the revisions my way and you can continue the workshopping over at my site, where I offer line edits and rewrites. We also workshop the occasional synopsis.

Feel free to lurk at either site for a bit. Reading through other queries and critiques is educational in itself.

I attended the webinar, and I was guilty of No. 10 in my world building. What really killed the pitch, though, was a reason not on the list: I wasn't nearly as descriptive or specific as I needed to be. For my MC's arc and motivations, I gave the "what," but neglected the "how" and the "why".

Thank you, Kristin, and Sara, too, for this wonderful project. Without it, I'd surely be getting rejection after rejection without knowing exactly what was wrong.

Any webinar you do in the future, I will be there for.

I'm in real trouble then. My manuscript is over 1,600,000 words in total and has more than just one or two main characters. But damn, I enjoyed writing it.

Great post, not-so-great version of Isn't it Romantic. Ella Fitzgerald does it soooo much smokier...

Received my pitch paragraph feedback today and it was incredibly helpful. So glad I did this workshop -- between the workshop itself and the pitch critique, it was invaluable. I still have hours ahead of me to improve my pitch/query, but at least now I have a better idea of where to focus my attention. And you're right: crafting a standout query is one heck of a challenge!

Thanks so much for your time and for the detailed critique. I would participate in another workshop from you in a heartbeat.

Bran Flakes, I think the point is that those tropes will always be present an enjoyed in SF&F, expected even, but it's difficult to put a fresh face on them in your book and even more difficult to make it sound original in a condensed form such as a query or synopsis. No easy feat. I'm sure it's possibly a reason why Harry Potter was rejected several times along with many other great books that went on to sell very well.

I think the key is infusing the voice of your work into your query so it feels original. Just my two cents.

*sigh*

Back to the drawing board. ;)

No, really--this is great. I have the worst time writing queries, and this DO NOT DO list is great, because I'm getting ready to query for my YA fantasy.

I am SO glad I was able to get my pitch paragraph critiqued - the advice received was invaluable!! Trying to capture the essence of the story in 12 sentences is no easy feat! I'm happy I did well for the first paragraph - need to go back to the drawing board for paragraph two.

Question Kristin (if you can answer) - should we name other major characters in the query? I was thinking about doing this but felt if I did it would become too convoluted.

Again, thank you for your time with the critiques!

This makes me glad I don't write F or SF. :D I can see how some of those points would be a major issue.

The bad news is, we got this information a little late, and then I took even later to post it! So the cut-off date to get your orders in, along with your custom, person inscription you'd like

As to point 2 of course these will continue in this genre, but using them as the way to describe your book is where they fall flat. For example, if I tell you my book is about Harry who discovers he has secret powers and must save the world from the ultimate evil, is there anything in that line that sparks your interest? Nothing about that feels fresh or new. The challenge and head beating on the desk bit is how to have a fresh take on the old.

It would be the same as querying your romance novel as boy meets girl, boy loses girl and surprise, boy gets girl back.

Does this mean all the pitch paragraphs have been critiqued? I haven't heard back about mine yet :(

Thanks for posting this!! It is much easier to write a novel than a query letter.

Nice list! Definitely points I will go over in future queries. Thanks!

Kristin,
You provided fabulous information in the webinar and your query critique was right on.

Like Dan, I suffered from vague details in my 2nd paragraph. It's a tremendous help to receive this type of feedback.

I'll be working on nailing down the query as I wrap up my novel.

Thanks for everything.

Oh, this is going to be such a useful checklist for me! I've got a couple of practice queries written and I think I've avoided making the plot paragraph too convoluted, but it took a few tries in some cases. The book I'll probably query first seems pretty good by these standards; the closest I probably come to failing is having a main character seem like the key to saving the world. He's important, but the book makes it clear he's just one of many who could fulfill that role, and that realistically it probably wouldn't depend on one person. I just have to make sure the query doesn't make it sound like he's the key!

Thanks for this analysis.

Many thanks, Kristin, for the class and the critiques. I presume those of us who haven't heard back yet will hear soon? I'm actually amazed you got all 200 done this quickly! Wow! ^_^

Just a post to say that
lac582 nailed it: "My take on it is it's not about whether those tropes are present, but rather if they are being pitched as the story's main *hook*. If there's nothing compelling to lift the story beyond the 'I've seen this before' elements, then your story won't feel fresh."

That was point exactly and I mentioned so in the workshop. You can have these tropes in your novel--they just can't be your hook in the pitch.

Great information. Thanks for sharing it. :)
Lisa ~ YA Literature Lover

I really appreciated the opportunity to get my pitch critiqued. It was nice to know what worked and what didn't--I had a hunch already--but how to make it work could have eluded me for months.

Thanks again!

Brilliant. All writers should be required to read your blog before querying!

I had no idea that could happen. I move my MS from Mac to PC & back again, through email or my flash drive. When I open, I just double click on it and it opens, just like that.

I should look into this "final with mark up" thing and see what it looks like!

Thanks for pointing this out.

I once worked for a nonprofit that sent out an organizational update to some very important government offices and politicians. One week, we were goofing off with the newsletter, which was normally written in the most bland, passive voice imaginable, writing some really, uh, spicy stuff. We changed it all before we sent it out.

Imagine our mortification when it turned out the spicy spoof was not only still visible but printed out with the letter!

When I worked in print production rather than media, we saw this problem a lot. When a Word file is emailed, the software sometimes hides the tracked changes. Even though you have track changes on, they don't appear. Then you send it to someone else and there they all are.

I've actually gotten first pages from a compositor that included the track changes as part of sample PDF.

Best way to check is to hit the "next" error in your track changes menu. If the changes are hidden, it will prompt you with a menu asking if you want to make them visible. If there are none, it will tell you so.

Such simple advice but SO valuable. Thanks for the heads up!

Ack! That's like finding out you've been walking around all day with the back of your dress caught in your underwear.

LOL Anonymous 8:16 I may never forget this advice because of your comment...

I learned this the hard way recently when sending to beta reader. She sent back the answer to a comment I had that I needed to research. That's how I found out...

Very good advice. I'd even save it in new file and make sure it's clean when you print it. (Word prints the comments if you have the tracker on. At least it does with how I have things set up. I didn't PURPOSEFULLY change anything...:)

How about submitting PDF files? CutePDF is free and you ensure that there are no compatibility issues between different word processing software. It's as simple as going to print your work and selecting CutePDF as your "printer".

I used to use the word mark up because you could turn it on and off at will. Now, once its on, its on. That means if I click accept changes, and say change a comma later in the piece, it tracks that comma as a change.

One reason why I hate word.

I found this out by accident, too.

Now I just copy and paste the whole thing into Notepad, which removes everything you can't see, and then paste it back into a new Word file.

Only thing is, it removes the formatting, too, so I first mark all italicized words with a *, and then go and change those back.

Awkward, maybe, but I know it's clean.

This happened to me when my agent asked for changes, and the document she received contained changes from ten generations earlier. Back when I wasn't even using the "track change" feature. So there were no tracked changes to accept or reject! There honestly was no way for me to have avoided the problem.

It's actually a Google Docs problem, not a Word problem (as much as I detest MS Word) and when I emailed it to myself at gmail, I was able to see the same garbage my agent was seeing.

I saved it as an RTF file, and it stripped out the changes. On the agent's side, viewing the document in MS Word solves the problem.

I don't even know how to track changes, so this may be one case where ignorance is bliss.

So, is such an oversight overlooked or is this a form rejection right off the bat? Thanks for the heads up!

Yet another reason not to use Word. Like I needed one. Seriously, this has got to be the worst word processor ever created.

They can have my WordPerfect when they pry it from my cold dead fingers....

I'm totally lost. I am familiar with Word but obviously not as much as I thought. I have no idea what 'track changes' are. Guess I know what I'll be doing this evening. Thank you so much for the post!

The final step in the process is then to turn Track Changes OFF. :-)

It's a valuable tool on both ends of the desk when used correctly. Many editors use it to communicate suggested changes to their authors.

Is this something that is on all the time or do you have to turn it on? I am picturing all of my submissions showing all changes I've ever made!

Yikes!
Now I'm going to be paranoid I'm making that mistake:-/

I don't know if this is a difference between Mac (which I use) and PCs, but when I'm finished with my changes, I usually copy-paste the entire document into a new one so none of the track changes show up. All that transfers over are the comments, which I then address before deleting them, and submit.

One time when I was using a PC at my library, all the changes stayed with the document even after copy-pasting it, but now I don't remember how I cleared that up. I just know I didn't submit a copy with the track changes showing.

I guess this means I need to be more careful. Thanks for the heads-up.

Kristin, I just started using track changes with my editor and did not know it could do that. Thanks for a really helpful hint.

In Word 2007, you can also inspect the document. Go to Prepare/Inspect Document. Then click the appropriate button to remove comments, revisions, versions, and annotations, or custom XML, and hidden text.

Oh wow. I'd be mortified if I submitted a document with track changes still on...

I never do track changes. And I'm too old to learn now. Besides, I like working with a clean ms. I do edits the old fashioned way and never even see track changes until they come from the copy editor.

I'm still using Word 2003 and will continue to do. From what googling I've done, the ability of Track Changes to magically appear in an electronically received manuscript when an author has sent it off "clean" seems to be a glitch in Word 2007 and possibly 2010, as well.

I don't use Track Changes in my own writing. I have used it when critiquing, but if I receive a manu back that someone has critiqued using Track Changes, because of the way I edit and revise (pencil and paper), I just print out the pages in question and compare to my "master copy," which is printed.

At any rate, the writer might be doing everything she thinks she can to get rid of Track Changes on her end. Then she sends it to you, and they magically appear. You'd think this would have been addressed in Word 2010, seeing as it's been around since 2007, but apparently it hasn't. One of my editors still uses Word 2003, as well, because of this glitch. How aggravating.

It's snowing there? Dang, we're barely seeing snowflakes here in Anchorage. Maybe it's time to move to Colorado. Send some of that stuff our way, please!

Oh, right. Track changes = ugh.

Even if Track Changes is OFF, you can view all changes in Word unless you've accepted or rejected them all. (Turning it off does not make the changes disappear - and just because you don't see them on your screen doesn't mean they're not there.)

I had the same thing happen to me. But mine was from an update. I went from MS Office 2003 to 2007 and it was auto on. It is under tracking in Review. It taught me best to email attachments to yourself FIRST and review. Saves issues.

It's not a bug or a glitch. Dayle has it right. In addition to accepting all of your tracked changes, you also need to TURN OFF the "track changes" option in the Review menu.

Too dang funny!

*takes note*

I hope your assistant keeps a bottle of mace and a taser gun handy.

It disturbs me that this is the third story I've heard in the past six months about people coming in person and expecting special treatment.

Yikes! Hope you shanked him with your triangle! Ha,ha.

Nice to meet you at Mici's the other night. I added your blog back into my bookmarks!

Michelle

Kudos to you Kristin for looking out for your team and scaring off the creepy, big bad wolf. *shivers*

Wow. I hope you and your assistant are okay, I'm sure that was really disturbing. Maybe you guys should get an office dog like a pit bull named Slushie or The Rejector.

I am amazed by the people who think it's okay to go to an agent's office hoping to see an agent. How do they not see how creepy (and unprofessional) that is?

And it's very cool of you to stand up for your assistant. Let's hope this guy learns his lesson.

I'm not one to raise a panic, but call the police and ask if you can fill out a police report but not press charges. You would want to do that in order to establish a paper trail documenting that this guy has been harassing your agency.

In the event that this guy is two characters short of a keyboard, you might need that paper trail in order to get a TRO or even to get him arrested. But at the very least, if you need to call the police because he returns to your office, you'll have a copy of the report (or the report number) on-hand and you can give that to the police when they come.

On the report, just state "I do not wish for charges to be filed at this time."

It stinks to have to do something like that, but the guy sounds not-right in the head. :-( Stay safe.

WTF--that is so creepy! Poor Anita. It never ceases to amaze me how inappropriate some people can be. I agree with the others that maybe there should be a security guard, a nice jumbo pack of mace in everybody's pocket, or Chutney should have a new doggie friend who is a Rottweiler. Or German Shepherd, or wolf hybrid. :) You tell 'em like it is, Kristin--that's so awesome that you unleashed the fury of a thousand worlds!

Hope you guys are ok--I'm so creeped out by that and I'm not even there. :(

Honestly, did he really think he would have a chance to give you a serious query after all that? Jeesh!

Oh my goodness! How awful! I hope you guys are okay! That's horrible.

I think people forget that the book business isn't quite like the rest of the business world. For the rest of the business world, it is not unprofessional to hand in your resume (really, what is your query) and I've heard some teach that you want to impress the boss by making sure they meet you and that persisitence matters, yada-yada.

What I think the man didn't do was 1) research the book business. Things aren't done the way they used to be and 2) take into account his own personality

Persistence and harassment walk fine lines together. Generally, people who don't take the hint after all the helpful information the assistant gives, have other serious problems.

Take the advice of the person encouraging you to make a report. You may not want to, but this man went beyond even general harassment.
That is "beginner" stalker behavior. Maybe he only needs a wake up call. Maybe he's harassing someone else and your report will give them that needed help to be taken seriously. Makes me feel good that you are so protective of your assistant. So many bosses don't have your understanding.

If this guy had done his research, he would have known that this has NEVER worked for an author. If, for some reason, an agent did agree to accept a pitch over the phone or on a walk-in (and all of the agents I know of explicitly refuse to) they would still only look at a pitch if that person was polite. Why do people think that by being abrasive they'll get positive results.

Even in business after sending a resume and calling in, you still don't turn up at the office and expect to be seen.

Usually you get a letter inviting you in at a specific time and day if the employer is interested. No matter how keen, to turn up at an office without an appointment is not done.

The same with dating. If you keep calling (and you've never met the person, you only have their number) and the person doesn't want to know - arriving at their front door borders on stalking.

It would spook me out. Hope you and Anita are okay. Thanks for the post, even though we know, it's still good to be reminded.

You meant "gentleman" ironically, I hope.

You should have a sign:
NO in person Solicitors.

or something like that, and yes, call the police.

I keep hearing about it, but it's hard to believe there are real people who behave like that. Maybe you should keep a taser handy?

Yikes! Who are these people?

You don't have to be a shrink or have had a book on stalking published (both true for me) to know it's never OK to get belligerent with someone's assistant.

Okay, so you reported him, right? As a former corrections officer, I've dealt with lots of unsavory sorts and have had an opportunity to observe lots of pattern behavior.(As well as have it inflicted on me, lol.) He sounds like he's got some sort of fixation. In this day and age, you can't be too careful. Just to be safe,maybe change up your routine a bit?

But, but, his novel was so good, and you should have at least talked to him! Can you blame him, can you really? If he had to take it that far, it must have been your fault of course.

I too am astonished to hear another story of an author coming in person...It makes the rest of us look bad. Hopefully you're not too traumatised? Have fun training the guard dog!

Amen sister! The world is full of jerks. Don't be one!

Taser gun, for sure. And a hammer just in case the taser doesn't take him down.

It's that feeling of entitlement that would bother me. Here's someone who thinks you OWE it to him to talk to him! Imagine how he'd be if you read his manuscript and had to tell him it sucked....

You'd need a sledgehammer.

It's one thing to meet an agent at a conference and hope she's impressed with your concept, or to sling out an elevator pitch hoping to strike an agent's interest, but calling and demanding attention is extreme, and showing up is downright scary.


This is a frustrating business. Sometimes you do feel strung along. The rejection writers face even with a sellable project can be overwhelming. I think a person like this, that can't take it in stride, and feels they need special attention to the point of seeking a face to face meeting, is dangerous.

I'd fill out a police report just to be on the safe side.

What if I just come in to say "hi" and drop off cupcakes? :D (Kidding. 50%. Everyone likes cupcakes.)

Oh, that's just creepy! I'm sorry to hear that happened.

Kristin has cupcakes? Whoa, let me get a plane ticket. ;)

My God, Kristin, that is scary! You really should notify the authorities about this harassment.

Just when I think people can't take audacity any further, someone else takes humongous leap across that line. I agree with Kelly, this man's actions are downright scary and having a record of his abuse on file probably wouldn't hurt.

Another vote for the police report. This is so disturbing.

Yikes. Scary. I'm with the first commenter about the mace and tazer. Do you think you *maybe* got through to them once you were done? Like maybe a tiny little Christmas bulb went off in their head: "Hmm, perhaps this was not the best approach..."

Sp: taser.

I thought I fixed that...

Wow. Thats one of the first things I learned when doing research on agents- they don't like you to call them or for you to show up in person. But, thats good for me- one more person off the list ;p

Adding my vote to the "file a report" lobby.

The words "series of calls" "insistent" "belligerent" and "browbeat" all add up to a potentially dangerous scenario in the future.

Take care, all of you.

You say it's not an answer, but it is. Thinking about it, I've encountered this in my own reading. The story intrigued me enough to read through to the end. But at the end of the book, the characters didn't resonate enough for me to see their story to the conclusion. (It was first of a trilogy.)

Analyzing it, I can understand your point of view on this matter with regards to requesting material.

Thanks for this post.

What if you did this and author rewrote story? As in added 20k and changed names, added to world building etc. Really rewrote it after finding beta readers and getting feed back?

Would it be worth a retry? Or not?

Why would we stick with a book if the main character isn't someone we'd want to hang out with? It could be likability or that the character is damn interesting. If neither...

The answer makes sense to me. I experienced this issue on the side of a critic in a past critique group. We had a member who had a difficult time with his first couple of chapters because no one felt they had nothing about the main character to latch onto for a whole novel.

It's not easy to hear readers say "I wouldn't continue reading past chapter one because of the main character." His novel got better with a secondary character that appears but that's not gonna help if the first chapters don't get the reader interested.

Oh gosh. You asked for my pages and now I'm scared. Bummer. The waiting for the yes send more or no thanks email is hell.

I've been able to read books in the past where I disliked the main character, but it really does make it more difficult. There's been time's I really have tossed a book aside because I was so frustrated with the protagonist. Which is probably a bad sign.

Leona said...

What if you did this and author rewrote story? As in added 20k and changed names, added to world building etc. Really rewrote it after finding beta readers and getting feed back?

Would it be worth a retry? Or not?

@ Leona

Changing names, world, etc., doesn't create a more likable character. If you can't address that issue, the rest isn't going to help.

But I think what you're asking is: is it ok to re-query? Most agent advice I've seen says "Yes, IF you've made significant changes." But wait a few months, and then do it only once. And then move on. At worst, you get rejected again, for that project.

The problem with re-querying is that most of the time you don't know why you were rejected. Which means it can be difficult to make effective changes--the reason for the initial rejection may be one you have no idea of. So it doesn't hurt to re-query--politely and ONCE--but in general, it's not the most constructive use of your time.

Hi Kristin,

You passed on my 30 pages recently. (sad face) Maybe I'm one of those you are referring to in this post. I assumed it was my writing or story line...didn't think about the fact that maybe you didn't connect with the character(s). hmmmm. Food for thought. Thanks...love your posts!

Had I been the one to query you I would have been thrilled to get any feedback at all on a rejection.

I disagree about that not being an answer. Even if the story moves a bit slowly or I stumble over a plot hole I'll keep reading if I like the MC. The common denominator for a DNF is that I don't like the protagonist. I've gotten three quarters of the way through a pretty decent story and gave up on the book because there was no indication that the MC would ever grow into someone I might like.

When all is said and done, I have to like the main character enough to care about what happens to her.

Sounds like you can have all the elements of good writing, but without the "X factor," it feels like something is missing.

The X factor is different for each person--that's what makes finding the right match all the more important.

I agree with the other comments--this is definitely an answer.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

Anyone ever read "Bonfire of the Vanities"? I hated the main character by page four...but I finished the novel. I think Robert Guthrie nailed it. The character has to be likeable OR damned interesting.

I've read characters that I just didn't connect with. I wondered why they were published, maybe someone did like them...but I'm turned off when the characters are totally whiney and annoying...who wants to hang out with that for 250 page?

I, for one, wish agents could stop time. Yes, that's right. If they could, perhaps they could take a little of that stolen time and let those of us who have sent in those "well-crafted, but" queries know what it is we are doing wrong. Because the problem I see with never knowing, is that we may continue to keep making the same mistakes over and over and over again with each subsequent novel. I fully understand why agents can't take the time with rejections, but we all wish you could.

I'd be grateful to get the feedback that you didn't like my character well enough to keep reading. In fact, I did get that from an agent and also a beta reader and it caused me to really think hard and do a *great* deal of re-working to my story. What I have now is so much better. I really needed to know that. :)

I'm the kind of person who automatically assumes the worst in any given situation (because it's usually true). ANY feedback whatsoever is good. "I didn't like the characters" means ... hell, maybe it's just taste and I can have hope that the next person might. Non-specific stuff makes me figure I suck so hard that light can't escape.

(Yeah, all I've ever gotten is non-specific stuff.)

I'm halfway through The Magicians right now. Quentin and Alice are starting to get on my nerves despite liking them a lot up until now. I expect I will love and hate them throughout the second part of the novel. What keeps me going is that they feel like friends now even if they are getting on my nerves, and I want to find out what terrible things await them in the next 200 pages based on the mysteries Lev has set up so far.

I guess you just have to get the write balance...

It's an answer.

Kristen,

It's most definitely an answer, at least the writer knows that part of what they are doing is right and they know what they need to improve.

As someone who writes realistic, character-driven fiction, this has always been a problem for me. I don't enjoy writing "sweet" characters, but go too far the other way, and you're going to have trouble even finding an agent.

I just finished reading THE MAGICIANS, and I had the same reaction. The characters really weren't likeable, but I had a hard time putting the book down, the storyline was so compelling.

Even at the end, they really weren't especially nice people, any of them.

It was sort of like if Harry Potter had grown up without the any moral compass -- no Hogwarts staff or stable friends or inspirational, dead parents.

That's a reason, and it's better than a form rejection, which I just got from an agency. The form just leaves you wondering -- was it concept? character? writing? length? if you know, it gives you the option of rewriting in a way that may eliminate the problem.

Love your blog.

I felt the same way about THE MAGICIANS. I loved the book - I even wrote Lev Grossman and drove him crazy telling him how much I enjoyed it, even though I couldn't stand 95% of the characters. Then I went on Amazon and read the reviews, and I couldn't believe how many people disliked the book just because the characters weren't sympathetic. Just because a character isn't charming and perfect doesn't mean the book can't be wonderful, but it goes to show how personal preferences mean everything.

I think it's a super answer - it's direct enough that a good writer can understand it and run with it.

BTW, I started reading your blog because I love anyone who shares their music choices. And so far, I've picked up a few of them. Thanks for that!

Back in the day the best rejection I EVER got was when I was told my MC just wasn't sympathetic enough to grab the reader.

Heave big sigh.

Execute rewrite #25.

Insert tweaks to round out MC into a believable person, tough, but likable.

Next time out it sold.