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Off-topic, but how would I send you a question, Janet? Can I just leave it in the comments of some post? I don't want to email you if I'm not querying you.

It's about rights and college publications, and I guess to save time I'll ask it here and if you can answer it, that would be greatly appreciated, if not please delete the comment with my apologies.

I have a manuscript that I'm going to pursue publication with, and I've been taking pieces of it to my writer's crit group which is at my local community college. The instructor of the class has asked me to read a portion of it at a student reading for the entire college, which would be nice to have for my query letter (I think). Except that any piece read at the reading is also published in a catalog that's handed out at the reading, as well as on the school's website. It does say on the website that the student retains all rights and the college doesn't consider the work published, but I know you have to be careful nowadays, so I wanted to check with someone who understood rights before accepting or denying the honor. I would love to accept, of course, but not at risk of jeopardizing the possibility of publication.

Thank you. :)

Well, the goal isn't to write a WHOLE novel.... Besides, you can't fault NaNoWriMo for everything; I found Miss Snark through the forums, Evil Editor through Miss Snark, and this via a fellow minion!

"A novel attempt"..as they say, is my take on this event. It is the jump start, of a marathon experiment. That's what I thought this 50K-in-30days is all about. Dead lines are good; so are "do-overs".

Thanks for answering this Janet. I didn't think you would buried in Nano submissions in December.

Technically (not that it matters), the imprint is Harlequin Teen, and yes, they take unagented submissions.

HQN is the adult single-title imprint and only takes agented submissions.

http://www.eharlequin.com/articlepage.html?articleId=949&chapter=0

http://www.eharlequin.com/articlepage.html?articleId=1403&chapter=0

I had an editor interested in a manuscript and she asked me to revise it. She also suggested that I start looking for an agent, which I did. She even suggested a few! I mentioned this editor's interest in my queries and also that I was not shopping it around, but she had asked for it before I started agent hunting. Not one agent had a problem with this. Ironically, the manuscript got turned down and still has not sold, but I got an agent with the next book I was writing during all the querying and that will be my first book (not to that first editor either).

I'm not questioning the actual advice, but how do you presume to know this woman doesn't know how to write a screenplay just because she's written a novel?? Yes, talent at one does not equate to talent at the other, but still. Some of us turn to novel writing because we grow tired of the creative limits of the screenplay format after years of doing it.

A production company usually has readers who do coverage of screenplays. The first step often consists of a first 10 pages and last 10 pages read. If you pass this test, they'll read further--but only until they're turned off. That screenplay has to be perfect for a company to put millions into it, and "name" actors to stake their reputations on it. (And of course "perfect" is defined differently at every production company.)

Whether or not you're skilled as a screenwriter, I wouldn't put in the weeks/months of work in exchange for moments of consideration unless you're just dying to write a movie.

I've wrtten 15 feature length screenplays, and I agree with The Snark on this. Like the literary world, screen writing has its own rules, and they leave no room for straying from the path. No producton company is going to waist time (which is money) having their readers (which are paid) look at a screenplay by an unagented/unproduced writer, whether they have a friend or not in the business. Every thing they look at has a complex release of liability form signed by the writer to avoid lawsuits.

on an aside: I have witnessed a few of these hook contests of late and read the worries of craming it all into 300 words. a screenplay has to be compressed into a one or two sentence hook.

you are on target oh Snarkiness!

Any reputable production company would have asked for the manuscript itself -- not for a screenplay from somebody who presumably has never written one. Red flag. Their preference is usually to assign a writer of their own choosing to a property.

And G -- if the questioner knew how to write a screenplay, s/he probably wouldn't have asked this question at all, because s/he would have had some experience with Hwood already and known what to do.

You've got a great friend trying to help you out. Thank her. And don't do it.

I'm a screenwriter (unproduced) and I urge you to NOT think that you can simply "learn the screenplay format" as if it is that easy. It is not.

You're talking about two types of writing that are VASTLY different. (I am a published novelist, too, so I do know whereof I speak).

Concentrate on your novel. And buy your lovely friend lunch. Or give her my number. I'm not above selling a script to a "women's" channel.

g-
like all true agents, miss snark has strange, magical powers we can only pretend to understand. woe betide those that doubt them.

If you've never written a screenplay you will be in for a shock at how differrent it is from writing a novel.

But, there are excellent resources that have been written over the years that will give you the basic standard format...the tools you need to present something that's professional. There are rules to follow; just like with writing a novel.

Aside from whether or not this is a valid request from the TV acquaintance (I tend to lean toward Miss Snark's general advice here because the request sounds too good to be true), I must strongly state that learning to write a screenplay can't do you any harm in the least. If nothing else, this is a wonderful vehicle to truly meet your characters in ways you've never imagined.

Thank you, Miss Snark! I hold an MFA in screenwriting from UCLA, and I want to bash my head against the wall when I talk to many novelists about screenwriting. They seem to think all they need to turn their novels into screenplays is a free weekend and a few formatting tips. An Academy Award for Best Adapted Screenplay is sure to follow. They never seem to pause to think that if a school like UCLA is offering graduate degrees in the subject, there might be more to it than that. Ouch.

I think that most legit places require you to register your work before they'll look at it

Well, almost nobody actually requires you to register your script with the WGA, but they do usually require you to sign a scary-looking disclaimer form before they'll so much as read FADE IN. (It does vary, though; I've had successful producers say "just email me the PDF.")

If you think writing a novel was good practice for that, you're wrong

I'm a published novelist and aspiring screenwriter, and I can confirm, yep, that, squared.

I don't understand why you'd give the MS to a friend and also to someone in the film industry when it's already in the hands of an agent!

Didn't you get feedback from a critique group prior? Was it not enough? Seems to me the best thing to do is to let the novel go, wait for the agent and if she gives feedback, then take it.
But for now, turn on the computer and start on your next novel or article.

I can't answer for Her Snarkiness, of course, but me, I'd assume that if the woman had screenwriting experience she would have mentioned it.

If your acquantance works in the film business not sure why she is suggesting you do this.

If the cable channel were really interested they buy the film/TV rights for the novel.

If they want to buy the rights you give a heads up to the agent who is reading your material. Miss Snark is right. An agent should be dealing with any rights questions.

Production companies try to get writers to write for free all the time. Don't do it. You have source material (your novel) they should pay for it, not ask you to adapt it for for no money. That is not cool.

Also, I love how the exec has not even read the novel yet and asking for a screenplay.

Weighing in here as a former network production exec (and now a nascent "real" writer) -
even if that production company contact asked for a screenplay, the network for which s/he works won't (this would be a first, in this day and age, I think) accept the work for coverage (that is, someone to read it and say hey yeah let's put on a show) unless the work comes in through an agent or an attorney.
Just an ex-LA Snarkling (Snarkette?) sharing the love.

Miss Snark only has a small space in which to comment, but in general I think she's right. I also gathered from the post that the author was not a former screenwriter.

I am in the group "G" mentioned, screenwriter turned novelist, but I still do both.

To the person who posted this question to Snark Central: I have experience in both areas and have two agents, a screenwriting agent and a literary agent. If you'd like to chat more about this, I'm happy to tell you about my own experiences and what I've learned along the way.

You can find me at:
www.theaccidentalnovelist.blogspot.com/

So, how do you handle someone who gets upset because you don't take their advice? Besides not asking for it anymore.

I forgot to mention that I've done the process the other way around. I turned an original screenplay into a novel in order to maintain more rights.

If you're not interested in being a screenwriter, then focus on writing the novel. In my experience, screenwriters have the least amount of rights of all writers. Studios will want ALL the rights associated with your story. They can even rewrite the story so much you lose any screen credit.

A colleague of mine wrote a teeny-bopper film that the studio later had published as a book without telling her! Turns out they were in the habit of doing this and were sued by a group of writers.

In any case, if you just write good novels, the studios will probably want to option them anyway. Tell your friend, if you’re still interested, that you want to publish the novel first.

Michele Lee - if you figure that out, please let me know. I have an otherwise dear friend who will not stop giving me unsolicited advice, and then getting bent out of shape when I don't take it. Our current detente (I won't take her advice, she won't stop pushing it) is over prospective brain surgery! If she's willing to push that (no, she's no kind of medical professional), picture how little her lack of knowledge about writing or the writing industry impedes her advice in that area.

From the writer who posed the original question:

Miss Snark was correct. I don't know the first thing about writing a screenplay. I explained this to my acquaintance, who assured me it would be "a piece of cake" since my novel is "heavy on dialogue."

This, I'm sure, is where the seasoned screenplay writers reach for the tar and feathers, and I can see why. I KNEW there was a lot more to it. As someone who can barely distinguish a screenplay from a turnip, I'm relieved to hear I should let this "opportunity" pass.

Thanks Miss Snark, and everyone else, for your insight. It's helped a whole lot.

Although the above statements that Stdios don't look at unagented spec screenplays is generally true, there IS a burgeoning business in low-budget made-for-TV movies, specifically for Lifetime, and specifically *very* low-budget, often non-union. I know producers in that field who will look at ANY pre-written script in the genre, hoping to find one that is filmable -- they prefer it to actually developing the property and hiring a (guild) writer. So the offer from the friend of the friend may well be sincere and legit.

Is it a good route to take? Highly unlikely. Unless you *want* to be in the TV business (which is largely separate from the movie business), this would be a distraction from your real goals.

You may also want to be more circumspect in passing out your ms., and ask anyone you give it to not to pass it on without your permission. If the premise of your novel is high-concept and producable, it's not impossible you'll see it as a TV movie yet -- without your involvement.

I must agree that writing a novel and writing a screenplay are two completely different things. They are crafts that have to be learned; they both contain certain degrees of difficulty.

I know some folks have a hard time with the word 'No' but...

If you can't learn to put your foot down now, you are going to have a hard time ever getting your story published.

I don’t know it for a fact, but I suspect your helpful friend doesn’t really know very much about movies. I find it amusing that he or she thinks a screenplay would be a snap for you because your novel has a lot of dialog. Dialog is more the realm of stage plays; films are more about plot and characters: it’s the idea that counts. I’ve heard the difference between the stage and screen compared to the difference between poetry and painting. And I think that’s pretty true. Very few successful films are mostly about dialog -- and most of those are adaptations of stage plays. The strength of your ideas, your plot concept and your characters, ought to be apparent from your novel -- or from a synopsis of it.

I think your friend is just trying to be helpful, but the only reasons I can imagine they would say the studio would rather see a screenplay than your manuscript is that they’re too cheap to option the book and then pay for a screenplay. Or the studio heads know nothing about this and it’s just one of their employees playing the big-shot-Hollywood-I-can-make-you-a-star game. Any decent studio (and any otherwise), has more submissions by professional screenwriters than they know what to do with.

As many have already said, screenwriting is way different from novel writing. They use completely different “languages.” Screenwriters are fluent in the language and conventions of motion pictures. To tell their stories they choose images, where novelists choose words. They follow strict structural standards that novelists would find stifling. They are different animals. And many of us do not do well around actual human beings.

Oh my. There's so much false expertise sold these days, at UCLA and elsewhere.

Ms Snark is perfectly right that movie scripts and novels are different media, and make different demands on a writer, and that converting a novel to a script is not just a matter of booting up Final Draft Pro and typing the whole thing in again.

But on the other hand: talent is talent. Consider Julian Fellowes. He won an Oscar for his Gosford Park screenplay, and his Snobs is a very fine novel. Or Neil Jordan, who started out as a short story writer, and went on to win the Oscar for The Crying Game screenplay.

My point is - the fatuous language of Hollywood, acts and protagonists and conflict and so on - might help you to write a medicocre genre script, if that's what you want to do; but if someone has the talent to write a novel, they should read a few shooting scripts, think as deeply as they can about the demands of cinema, and go for it. And avoid screenwriting classes! Those guys sell a dream, and maybe it's not the worst way to pass the time, but it has about as much to do with getting a screenplay bought as your local writing class has to do with selling a short story to the New Yorker.

alphabet said... "talent is talent" and then gives examples of writers who have done well in novel writing and screenwriting.

Thats all fine and good, but I think you are missing the point.

If the original questioner hasn't ever given a passing thougt to writing a screenplay I doubt now would be the time to start considering his/her novel isn't even sold (or agented).

I write both novels (published) and screenplays (no agent yet), but screenwriting was something I studied on my own for two YEARS and even then I didnt' tell anyone about it until after I'd made it into the Quarterfinals of the Nicholls Fellowship.

If you do not have the passion to learn an entire new way of writing -- but have to ask Miss Snark, gee should I write a script? -- then I'd say the answer ought to be Heck, No!

People with PASSION for writing scripts and the dedication to take years of their life to learn the craft don't need to ASK if they should write a script.

I take it on faith that Miss Snark is correct, but I do not understand precisely how having a completed screenplay could reduce the saleability of a novel. If the screenplay property has not been purchased by anyone, it is still owned and negotiable. What has changed by letting someone read it?

Film agents are not keen on shopping "used" screenplays, ie those read already. That's almost the first question they ask: "have you shown this to anyone".

It can indeed damage your prospects of a film deal with your novel if you've already shopped it, and badly.

This is an inane comment, but I just have to agree that Mary Kay Zuravleff is an extraordinary writer. I'm eagerly awaiting her next novel, though by then I will have forgotten her name again.

I'll probably just google "The Bowl is Already Broken" and hope to track her down again.

How about Duane Swierczynski?

His two noir books from St. Martin's has gotten good reviews.

(And, no, I'm not a friend of his. Just a fan.)

I have what should be an easy to spell and pronounce name--Jane Yolen--and 280+ books out. And you should see how it has been slaughtered and mis-handled, even by my own publishers, on occasion!

Stick with your own name.

jane

My husband is a singer/songwriter. He had a difficult last name, but he went with it. I am pretty sure he feels like it was a HUGE mistake. DJ's got it wrong, a pronunciation guide was put on the CD, but it didn't really help, fans can never remember it, and no one can say it. No one could ever google it and find him, regardless of trying to hedge your bets. When we got married, he took my simple last name (3 years ago) and LOVES it. He is now recording under his new name, but you're right, it's confusing to his old fans. I would say you should decide now and make the change now. And it's all well and good to say it didn't hurt those other famous authors, but you don't really know that (sorry Miss Snark). And even if it didn't "hurt" them, I'm willing to bet it was a pain in the ass.

Another concern--larger than the one you cited--is querying over e-mail (to agents who allow it, of course). I too have a rather difficult last name that invariably makes my mails wind up in spam filters. So if you must e-query, try using 'Alex S.' rather than 'Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn.'

Really, though, your nom de plume is the least of your problems in this whole business. Use whatever name you're comfortable with in real life, trust Miss Snark, and be true to yourself, blah blah blah.

I've already started using a pseudonym. My real name is consistently misheard to start with a different letter (it rhymes with a common word, and the first consonant is similar), so if someone heads to a bookshelf to look for me I'm toast.

It's taken a year to train my pharmacist. I don't think I have that long with a reader.

I'm not a real author yet, but I already made that decision. I've got a pen name because I've yet to see anyone other than a close friend or family member spell it right.

I figured that a last name like that would just be another stumbling block, and the road to publication is hard enough already.

My advice: try out your prospective pen name as an Internet screen name for at least a couple of weeks first. If there are any problems in it, you can only find out by using it. I ended up discarding my first choice after testing it that way.

I vote no on homogenization.

It's still being done in Hollywood...Tom Cruise dropped Mapother, Winona became a Ryder after ditching Horowitz.

Stick with your own name.
But just out of curiosity, what names were you pondering?

I used to worry about my ridiculous last name until I noticed that, in most bookstores, it would directly precede Tolkien. Maybe not such a bad thing.

I've got the opposite problem--if ever published, I plan to spruce my name up a bit (it's the third most common name in the US--plus, the first hits that comes up on Google when you search my name are a rather inventice stripper and an extensive pedigree for a show dog).

I see (wonderful) Kristen Nelson has a horror of middle initials.

But my middle initial is "V", the coolest letter in the alphabet. Think of words that start with "v"- they're usually sexy , or sexily unpleasant in an interesting way. V is never boring.

Vulpine. Vindictive. Voracious, Va-jay-jay.
"V" has sex & drama built-in.

I like the way it looks when V divides my name, purely as an ideogram:

John Smith

versus (another powerful v-word):

John V. Smith

If my middle initial were a pedestrian vowel or a lackluster consonant like "F", I'd refrain.
But the letter V rules the world.

Unless you're U Thant. But even he secretly wished his U was a V.
As consolation, I'd love to take him shopping at Bvlgari.

U Thant has been dead for 32 years. His grandson is alive and well however, and the author of a wonderful book called The River of Lost Footsteps.

Maybe Thant Myint-U wants to go shopping at Bvlgari.

Hell, I do.

Miss Snark said, "An easy to say or spell name is no guarantee they won't get it wrong."

My last name is Brady. Who the %$@#*&$%#@ hasn't heard of the Brady Bunch? You'd be surprised how many people still butcher this simplest of names.

I'm not using Brady as my publishing name. I'm using the name it will shortly be changing to, if I can ever light a fire under someone's butt. And I'm sure that name will be butchered too. It's a crapshoot, so I'd go with my gut. Use your real name, or invent a whole new persona. Best of luck!

After 5 years, I still can't pronounce my dentist's name, but I still go back to him anyway. He's a good Yankees fan.
Can you say Kalavrouzoitis? I can't.

Heh, my last name contains 17 letters in it ... so I understand the letter-writer's problem. :)

Thank you for the responses! Wow, there are so many different opinions on this. I guess it's hard to know how much a person's name influences their success or lack of it. There are so many other factors involved.

The name in question is "Burzynski." It's not as difficult as some of the other names listed here. All the same, in the 10 years I've used it, never has the question, "Last name?" not been followed by "Can you spell that for me?" My maiden name is "Raby." It's kind of an unfortunate name, given its similarity to "rabies," but it's a lot easier to spell and remember.

Honey, I'd rather a name that everyone asks how to spell than one everyone assumes they know how and then proceed to spell it wrong...

My maiden name was Umphrey... and no one EVER spelled it right... nor did they ask ME how to spell it, because they assumed it was Humphrey!

Word verification: zpwuozkr

It's like it KNOWS what we're talking about!

*scans commentors for Dave Kuz...Kuzmin...Dave from P&E*

Deschanel said...

But my middle initial is "V", the coolest letter in the alphabet. Think of words that start with "v"- they're usually sexy, or sexily unpleasant in an interesting way. V is never boring.

Vulpine. Vindictive. Voracious, Va-jay-jay.

"V" has sex & drama built-in.









Woo hoo! I'll buy that. My last name is Valentine, and I rather like it. Unfortunately, it's paired with a first name no one can spell (including my poor late mother, bless her heart). I just did a blog post on this (uncanny timing) because so many people had Googled it, looking for a pronunciation. Miss Snark's suggestion to put it in your site in all the ways someone might misspell it is a good one. I'm going to do that, although it might reach the bottom of the page.

***Mom, why didn't you name me Lacy?***

My favorite mystery writer when I was in my teens: Ngaio Marsh.

Still don't know how to pronounce it. My best guess is Ni-oh. But I bought everything she wrote.

Another side to it: I know someone who worried and fretted over this issue so much that he changed his name legally and used the new name for his new family. Problem? Never published so much as an essay with that beautiful, memorable name.

My take: readers are literate, and we'll follow your oddly-spelled name wherever it takes us, if you write what we love to read.

Interesting response. My agent very specifically wanted me to keep writing while he was trying to sell the first book and to send the next one along as soon as it was finished and so on.

At one point, before the first sale he had four of my novels out with various editors. Now, with four sold (only 1 from that intial 4), he's got five out along with five proposals--I write more than one book a year.

My agent's reasoning (as I understand it) is that he's repping not just this or that book, but helping me to build a career to both of our benefits which means multiple books sold sooner rather than later and that more books out is going to do that faster.

Miss Snark's method seems to be quite different (I'm sure she has excellent reasons) and I'd be interested in hearing the thinking behind it.

Would you consider a novel and a non-fiction proposal two wildly different animals?
I currently have both with my brand new agent and was wondering what kind of game plan to expect.

Ah Miss Snark speaks the truth again (you should add this to your labels). I think this is one of the contributory reasons for so many lacklustre second novels. When I got a book deal, I worked hard at not going back to try to fix the old stuff that hadn't sold because, if I was being totally honest with myself, it wasn't good enough. Literary band aid is see through.

It's always tempting, but I think one of the reasons for second novels seeming less good than first is because they're not second at all - they were dragged out from under the bed and dusted off.

I'd be very worried if I didn't think that my novels weren't getting better with each one. So why publish something less than the best I can do, even if my agent and editor think it's 'good enough'?

And as a writer, I wrote that then, not now: publishing it would be like insisting on putting my High School poetry in my current collection.

Emma

Sure, I have about twenty other books I've written, but...I never tried to sell them! I was too busy living life and I knew the publication process would require a lot more emotional fortitude than I had before now.

That's not really a backlist. Or I should say, I've always heard "backlist" used to refer to previously published novels, usually now out of print.

The unpublished novels are the contents of the author's trunk!

So when you say the record is six reads, is that the minimum or the maximum?

Well...I queried my first book and my third but not two or four. I plan on rewriting number one.
"Thar's gold in them thar hills!"
Ya may just have to dig it out!
Second novels.
OK... MAKE me nervous!
Yikes!
All I can think about is number one.

Number two haunts you in your sleep. It tracks you in the night. It ruins your every waking minute. Everything they say is true, sorry...

Upside is you end up researching much more deeply into ways to publicise your first, you find new and exciting outlets for your creativity, your house gets really clean and tidy, you discover how to code in html and dig up hidden corners of the internet you might never have seen else...

Good luck :-)

Thanks for saying you've sold books you didn't love. I knew it was done, but not many agents own up to this.

I never assumed that so many second novels were weak because they were actually earlier novels. I'd expect most agents to reject those crappy novels-from-the-drawer just as Miss Snark usually does.

I always thought it was because the pressure to produce a follow-up forces many first-timers to knock out the new book in half or a third of the time they spent writing, revising, and polishing the first one.

The only deadline for your first book is the one you impose on yourself. Once you're published, that's not true for no. 2, unless no. 1 was such a huge hit that you can take your sweet time (e.g., Donna Tartt).

Just one more reason to get started on no. 2 *while* you're trying to find an agent for no. 1.

"And I've sold books I didn't love."

Thank you for this sentence! Don't we all have to do this at least once in a while.

And then you have Gustave Flaubert who wrote his first version of "The Temptation of St Anthony" in 1849, reworked it off and on as he wrote other great novels like "Mme Bovary" and "A Sentimental Education", and finally published the final version of "Anthony" in 1874. But then this is the Flaubert book that practically no one has read. I know I haven't, and I'm a fan; hell, I've even read "Bouvard and Pecuchet" twice.

The odd truth is that authors tend not to be the best judges of their own work, past or present. All you can do is put it out there and see if anyone digs it.

Oh, and adding my tiny voice to the great chorus of joy: welcome back Miss Snark! Hope you had a lovely vacation.

I admit I'm curious about those books you sold and didn't love. Were they part of a package deal? Maybe lost a bet? Or did it to win a bet? Did you find yourself obligated for other reasons?

wait, hold the phone! I thought writers couldn't "hire" or "fire" agents. just being a literal pain in the ass. haha! can't kick me - I'm in Japan!

Christine

"...publicise your first, you find new and exciting outlets for your creativity, your house gets really clean and tidy, you discover how to code in html and dig up hidden corners of the internet you might never have seen else..."

I find this true even before the first has sold. My agent has been shopping my first novel, and I wake each day, intending to focus on writing book number 2, but progress is slow and I'm easily distracted.

I've been thinking that second novels aren't as good simply because they are more difficult to write.

On the flip side, I don't think there's anything wrong with having your agent take a look at your earlier works, as long as you're willing to take "this blows chunks" for an answer.

Reminds me of the times when you hear about writers "unpublished novels" after they die.

Sometimes you wonder why the texts were never published and most times, I understand why they were never published.

Not all of writer’s books are good. Some should stay in the drawer or closet forever.

John Fowles's first published novel ('The Collector') was actually the third he wrote, and he later published his first-written novel ('The Magus') to great acclaim, so sometimes it works.
Or, it works, but only if you're John Fowles. Who most people aren't.

I could count the number of writers I know that THINK they have a number of "solid, decent titles that didn't find homes because the market turned or they just weren't breakout enough."

It would take me a long time, but I could count them.

It wouldn't take nearly as long to count the ones who are right.

They may be nice, but whoever thought "I'd Like to Buy a Bowel: Ostomy A to Z" was a cute title needs to ... I dunno, stay the hell away from me, at the very least.

There's no official new word for vanity publishing of the type that doesn't lie to you, like Lulu and a few others.

I can understand why such enterprises would shy away from a word like "vanity" but technically, that's still what they are, at least until one of the newfangled words they've invented catches on and becomes the new standard.

If the prices are sky-high, be sure to check it out even more. Sky-high prices are a warning sign.

I've seen all kinds of labels for these ventures: Publish on demand Book on demand; print on demand; but miss snark is correct on the model: pay to play=vanity. It's printing, not publishing.

I often wish I hadn't printed two nonfiction books this way back when it was free, and I saw that-- A Random House Venture--label somehow had an air of legitimacy, if only at a farm league level.

As "Emily" Editor at said big publisher later told me in response to a slushpile submission: "There's no farm league for publishing. There's only publishing, and we don't care where it comes from if we like it."

That worked for me. I play the game under the rules of the game, not some personal version.

Miss Snark,

I read you only for the snark, as I'm not interested in actually writing books...

I have to tell you that I'm from Minnesota and we have plenty of room for an expert in snarky such as yourself... sure, us snarky peopel have to hide behind a thin veil of "Minnesota nice" -- but, the snarky club is large and we welcome newmembers.

Actually, depending on the project, your name IS on the cover of a work-for-hire project. My name is on several novel covers that way. Yeah, I'd love to have a long list of original works to list, but WFH helps pay the bills, and it shows an agent or editor that you know how to meet a deadline, take editorial comments, and generally behave like a real writer.

wow, this is such an interesting dilemma. a tough position to be in!

Making your client's book the best it can be will not harm her in any way.

Your situation reminds me of a local pediatrician who penned a novel, then self-published it. I wasn't embarrassed for the guy because he chose that method to see his stuff in print. However, the two misspelled words on the first page and the really cheesy opening scene -- those make me cringe every time I see him.

Situations like this are why, when I work directly with authors rather than publishers, I ask authors why they want to use my services. Whether they plan to self-publish or to shop their ms. to agents, I tell them that my editing their work doesn't guarantee that their ms. will be accepted by publishers and that it doesn't guarantee huge book sales. If they still want to proceed, I'm happy to edit their prose.

But should the editor say anything to the client?

...

Observation:

I recently took a position in Bloomington, Indiana. The hotel I stayed in temporarily was just up the street from the headquarters of AuthorHouse. Their building is absolutely lovely, lots of windows that reveal high-quality interior accoutrements and sports an outdoor, high-end patio with gas grill. The parking lot is full of newer cars.

I leave it to the readers to take what they will from such information.

There are times when, as a freelance editor, you have to speak up. If you see work that's clearly libelous, obviously plagiarized, or in some other way has the possibility to land not only the author, but anyone associated with said work in court...then, clearly, it's in both of your best interests to say something.

But Miss Snark is right; if you're not cheating this person in any way, just doing the job she hired you to do, you're not "complicit" in anything. Had she asked your opinion ahead of time (and dog bless those who do!), and you deliberately steered her into a vanity press or the like when you could have told her to do something better, then you'd be at least somewhat responsible for sending her to a second-best route. In this instance, however, she'd already decided to part with her money to the POD firm, so there was nothing you could have done to change that. If it's not within your power to change it, you don't have to feel guilty about it, either.

The good news is, if you make this book the best thing it can possibly be, it's a win-win. She gets a good book, people enjoy it, she maybe gets a few more sales than she would have if it had been dreadful :-), and you've helped spare us all from a piece of POD excrement. Not bad work when you can get it!

And think of it this way. You do a great job for her, she likes you and respects you, and next time maybe she asks your opinion about where her new book should go. Then you can give her the benefit of your wisdom, and she can take it or leave it, and she's still happy.

I know it's hard not to feel like you're "part of the problem," but you're not in this case. You're actually in a position where you can contribute to a good solution for everybody.

There, now, doesn't that feel better?

:-)

Janny

I do a fair amount of freelance editing for self-publishing nonfiction authors. I consider it absolutely my responsibility to educate them about the publishing process and to help them avoid the pitfalls of vanity publishing. If they've already signed and they're committed to going forward, I'll still do the editing for them; but I try to avoid that situation. I've turned down more than one job on the basis of the client's cluelessness.

[Word verification csnrxkkk contains snrk in that order, oddly enough.]

I'm a freelance editor and have worked with a couple of people who are self-publishing. You know, they were happy with it. They had a specific project in mind, wanted it to see the light of day, and for them, POD was close enough. I really wouldn't worry about it. "Amateur" writers (ie, vanity/POD people, heh heh) are happy to have a book in hand, regardless of how it got there.

I agree that you have no need to feel guilty. She's an adult, and made her mistake without your input.

If you do want to try to help her, I have some ideas. You probably have thought of all of them already, but just in case . . . . (I don't work with anyone using a subsidy press, or with subsidy presses, but I am a listmom on two of the largest listservs for small publishers, so I confront this frequently.)

First, you need to know what her goals are. There are many, many people who simply want to be able to give copies to friends and family. THAT a POD press can help them achieve. And your work will make theirs into something that isn't cringe-inducing.

If she (I think it was a she) has been suckered by that old favorite "your book will be available in major chains" you might let her know that this means it can be special ordered by the customer, NOT that it will be on the shelves. Enlighten her about the standard terms of trade and what you need to do to get onto those shelves. (Ingram availability, pricing, returns, discounts, real marketing plans, etc.)

Suggest that if she really wants to sell through bookstores (and if this is fiction, that may be her only route to significant sales), she may want to pull the book from the POD publisher. It is perfectly possible to print POD on your own, if she's stuck on self-publishing. I recommend, however, that she think about how she'll finance an offset run if her test marketing works.

Suggest that she buy some books on the subject, if she insists on trying to publish herself. She needs to understand marketing, design and production, and the infrastructure issues. (I have a list available if you need it.)

Suggest strongly that any book that can succeed commercially as a self-published book can also get a traditional publisher and succeed in a larger way through them.

It's not a tough position to be in at all. Regardless of where the book ends up, you've been hired for your editorial experitise. As Miss Snark says, if you're giving your best professional efforts -- the same efforts that you would be giving any other client -- then there's no problem, no ethical dilemma. The fact that the client has chosen to self-publish her work isn't your concern. That was not what she hired you for.

Thanks for your advice, Miss Snark and everyone. (Janny: I do feel better!)

Since the author firmly believes that God is going to make her book a success because she's His prophet (this is THE most entertaining editing project), maybe this whole POD thing is a moot point. I'll just concentrate on making it the best damn crazy rant about the end times that it can be.

This was an enlightening question and an absolutely instructive bunch of answers. I'm impressed. Thank you, one and all.

That's very sad though, isn't it.
I'm amazed at the people who don't know anything about getting published and don't bother to look or ask before getting suckered. Nitwittery is a wonderful word. I picture little fluttering birds with brains the size of baby peas.

JM,

Completely by coincidence, I'm working on a "crazy rant about the end times," too. Get in touch by email (click my signature for contact info), and we can compare notes. Maybe our authors can cross-endorse or form a support group or something.

"Since the author firmly believes that God is going to make her book a success because she's His prophet"

Well, I've seen the bumper sticker "Jesus Is My Co-Pilot". I guess this woman's should read "God Is My Publisher".

And most likely (though not definitely) hers is a project that really should remain POD.

Funny -

I would have expected Miss Snark to tell you to turn the statement around into a general question, while you are interviewing the agent:

Which publishers do you think would be most interested in my work?

What do you think about Publisher X? Publisher Y?

Who would you contact over there? Have you sold anything to her (him) yet?

I would expect that you can learn a fair amount about both the market for your work, and about the agent, by asking questions like that.

You could try to find out where she is now, and send it to her again.

If the agent hasn't posted guidelines, what's the standard for number of sample pages to send? Should those be the first pages of the piece? Thanks!!

Never mind, I think I found the answer in the Snarkives. First five pages of chapter 1, yes?

curious - The divine Miss Snark says to send five double-spaced pages along with your one-page (single-spaced) query letter. They should be the first pages of Chapter One - if you have a prologue, don't send it.

Congratulations!

I agree. Let your novel steep for about a month to six weeks like Stephen King does. Better yet, read his book, ON WRITING, while your body recharges. Rent some good movies, turn off the computer, and get out of the house every day. Sunlight is good.

I can personally attest to the wisdom of this advice. My book also took two years to complete, went through 253 partial edits along the way. I let mine sit completely untouched for three months. When I finally picked it back up, I had a clarity I didn't know I was lacking.

I made the mistake of querying too early, closing a lot of agency doors that might have been open, otherwise.

What the anon. #1 wrote, plus start working on another story to fill in that almost-empty spot.

Make it something wholly different from your book, genre, characters, background, whatever. You don't have to intend to finish it, the purpose is to keep your gears oiled and working.

I spent a month killing trees while trying to make a very frustrating short story work. It never saw publication, but when I went back to my novel I discovered I'd grown as a writer. It got my mind off the first work, but kept me in practice. When I came back for the edit the book really improved!

Oh. It sold, BTW.

Yes, congratulations. You have reason to be proud.

But may I add a few suggestions to your to-do list during your "time off?"

At the very least, in addition to reading Stephen King's book, read Noah Lukeman's, "The First Five Pages" and Nancy Kress's "Characters, Emotion & Viewpoint" and take notes and tab sections for future reference. I don't know these authors, so this isn't me plugging these books. I'm sure there are many others that Snarklings can suggest.

Also, read a few more books in your genre (after you read the books suggested above.) I'm betting you'll approach the rereading and rewriting of your manuscript with eyes wide open - unlike me, who wasted an incredible amount of time and energy rewriting with my eyes wide shut.

Don't waste your queries by jumping the gun. There is a lot more skill than luck involved in this business.

Congratulations from me as well.

Be patient. Sit on it for at least a month!!! I've just done that with my second project and believe me - after 4 to eight weeks (I waited 6 weeks without once opening the file - not even when I was longing too), you'll see things that you haven't seen before because you are too close at the moment. Put some distance between you and your writing.

Yo can still work on query letters. They are time-consuming :-) And yes, enjoy the feeling of having finished your novel. Be proud. Enjoy it.

Congrats to the author, and a vote for Miss Snark's canonization, for insisting on the wait and the subsequent open-minded read.

Congratulations, author!

Miss Snark is wise. Don't query yet. I guarantee you'll be glad you didn't.

I so very much wholeheartedly agree with this!!!

I just took novel #4 off the shelf last night after letting it ferment for more than six weeks. I'm so glad I let it sit. In that time, I solved a few problems in the story that had been nagging me. The beauty of it is that I didn't even plan on fixing anything-- when I relaxed and quit obsessing over it, the ideas sort of just came to me.

I cracked that thing open last night and yes, I will have to chop off the first 37 pages, and yes, while I was working on other projects my writing improved. I know what to do with it now.

Keep in mind that even though it seems the world is crawling with writers when you read this blog, not everybody has the stamina, guts, and stubbornness to finish writing a novel! I feel your need to get moving on the next part but this month off is a blink in the timeline.

Good luck to you!

Congratulations.
Start your next book.

As with everyone, i agree with Miss Snark... her other post about Mohshin Hamid is worth looking into too... He spent 7 years writing "Moth Smoke" and then 7 more years writing "The Reluctant Fundamentalist"-- he changed the second novel dramatically and several times... it originally ended before 9/11 and then he revised it to start later around 9/11 to include this event in his story... he made major changes over the years... and stepping back may be helpful to you in making sure you have the novel as you want it...

Congratulations from me as well. One thing I did not hear that I'm sure Miss Snark has said in the past, is: Find someone to read it. Someone who won't be afraid to tell you the truth (in a nice way). Not a friend, but someone whose writing you respect. Of course I'd probably do this AFTER the month cooling off period. Or find a writers group (I belong to a group online) and have them help you improve/edit it.

Might I add, have you had someone you trust to be honest read it?

Query letters are very hard to write. You could use the month to write query letters. They will need approximately three times the editing of the actual manuscript, so get started on those while the manuscript is sitting in the background.

And as others said, working on a short story is a good way to clear the brain. Between the short story and query letters, you'll be plenty frustrated enough that you won't even notice you're not yet sending out query letters.

:>)

Best of luck and congrats!

Congratulations! Take a week and happy-dance around the house and yard. Then go out and get a haircut. Something sexy that announces to the world your new status of NOVELIST (unpublished, but so what? The details can come later).

Then take people's advice and get completely away from that book. I was stunned for a month the first time I wrote 'The End' on a manuscript. Being finished felt SO-O wonderful that I mistook (like others before me) the feeling for the fact. I assumed the book was great because I felt great about it.

I was WRONG.

I let it sit for a month but that wasn't long enough. Like others before me, I closed some publisher/agent doors by querying too soon. I needed the complete mental break of writing nothing but short stories for a year (I sold a few, too, so I had some recent good writing credits for the eventual query letter).

A friend, who had been rewriting and revising and re-querying the same novel for four years, recently left her manuscript under the bed for a few months while she went to Europe. When she came home and opened the file, she realized instantly what her friends had been politely hinting for the past few years: even after all that rewriting, she still had a sow's ear. A highly decorated ear, but still...

Leave that manuscript. Go away and do something else for months. Read books, read discussion lists, read the Sunday Times, write letters to the editor, write short stories, but do not open your manuscript file for MONTHS.

Blessings be upon your future as a NOVELIST.

CONGRATS! YAY YOU! ALSO HUZZAH!

Some utterly unasked for ass-vice, mostly a longer-winded version of Patricia Woods':

I have found that for me, the best way to stop thinking about a novel that needs rest is to begin working on the next one. Within a month, you will be DEEPLY in love with your new project and better able both to look at your old Lovah with a jaundiced and cruel eye and to withstand your former darling's peril-filled jouerney into querying and being shopped. I hope it works for you, too, plus it is ALWAYS nice to be able to truthfully say in queries that you are hard at work on novel number 2.

Best of luck to you as you pursue this maddening and delightful craft--
Joshilyn

Way to go! You've at least done something so many talk about but never do -- you finished the damn thing!

Now...walk away from it for a month. Don't you dare check in to see how it's doing. Let it lay there. Go rest.

Books are very much like babies. They emerge with great pain, leave you exhausted and might look like hell at first glance. But after you've put some distance between the birth and recovery, you take a new look and realize you've got a damn pretty baby.

Some however are just...well, ugly babies forever.

If you're really a writer, you'll be able to tell what you have.

This applies even to short fiction.
It's so damned difficult to set something aside when you're so certain it's done. But really, do set it aside for a whole month. I advise you to not even read it for a month. Then read it. Then re-edit those bits and pieces that might still need it. Oh my gosh - good luck with it and congratulations. Finishing is not easy to do.

Love your blog. I visit every day.
When you say you look at the deal and would choose the one that offers the best Marketing and PR - Well, I've always been told not to expect much of either for a first book.
Do some agents negociate for this?
Should I expect it now?

If Captain Kirk fought Captain Pichard who do you think would win?

Off topic, but Kirk would take Picard down with a low blow while Picard was busy soliloquizing--not a real word, but Picard does it--on the nature of conflicts and man's inhumanity to - POW - OOOOOF.

Don't be ridiculous, Twill. Kirk was like 100 years old when Picard was born. He would obviously be far too weakened by his severe extra-terrestrial herpes to stand up to even the wussiest Picard.

A la The Incredibles? You sly dog... You caught me in a monologue!

How to Pan for Gold

Place your pan under water, keeping the pan under water at all times, filling the pan nearly full. Throw away the large stones and break up lumps of mud and clay.

Hold the pan level with both hands and rotate the pan with swirling motions. As you rotate the pan the heavier gold loosens from the sand, gravel and settles to the bottom. Tilt the pan downward to let the dirty water, sand and gravel wash over the edge of the pan.

Continue to raise and lower the lip of the pan so the water will flow over it and remove more of the lighter material.

Continue this process until nothing but gold and heavier minerals are left in the pan Carefully inspect the black sand for nuggets or tiny specks of gold or other precious minerals.

Lots of e-mails pouring in for this one huh?

Wait! I meant to ask if there were lots of intelligent e-mails pouring in about this.

Didn't think so.

great writing = no slush pile

Yep, I think that model would be better. LOL

Quit whining about ending up in the slush, and write better manuscripts. It really is that simple.

My fastest rejection was three minutes. No lie. My longest rejection was one year.

I love this business.

My agent found me through the slush pile--oh, praise the higher powers that she even has a slush pile and that she actually reads the stuff!

I didn't know anyone in publishing. I found her the old-fashioned way--by researching agents who sell my type of book--querying 20 or so of them; receiving a handful of rejections, a handful of acceptances, and a third handful (can that be?) of non-responders.

Of those interested in reading more, I ranked them (based on reputation and...okay...big-name-ed-ness), sent exclusively to her first, and waited. Before long, I was signing a contract!

Take it from one who's lived through it. The system works!

Right on, Anon.

The idea that there might be a more efficient way to pull the nuggets from the slush (to extend the metaphor) is appealing.

But judgment can't be mechanized. There is no substitute for the application of informed taste, regardless of what logistical system is at work.

Nobody has come up with a computer that can write a credible -- or, more to the point, saleable -- novel. Similarly, there is no way to reduce the process of literary assessment to the kind of productivity tools that can grow ROI.

Human hands write, human eyes read, something connects or it doesn't.

And thank dog there are keen eyes like Miss Snark's out there eager to do the job.

I don't know if panning would be any better as it tends to cause numbness of the extremeties.

That water is COLD.

This is perhaps the most reasoned and rational question and response that I have ever seen in a blog. My compliments to both of you.

If I may summarize: Publishers need to find new material to publish. Some of that will come from existing authors, some from new authors. In order to reduce their costs and risks, they have moved the job of finding new authors to independent subcontractors called Agents. There are many ways for agents to find new authors. The one that has worked the best is described by Ms Snark as The Slush Pile.

There are at least two requirements in this end of the business: In order to be evaluated, the work must be read. There are vastly more potential authors than there are publishing slots. Efficiency is rarely achieved by radical changes to business methods. More often it is obtained by the application of numerous refinements.

The greatest improvement in the time it takes to read submitted work has been computerizing it. Electronic submissions of bad writing can be discovered and rejected in less time than it takes to open letter and document its contents. There are not likely to be any significant improvements on this front in the near future, if ever.

This leaves us with the job of filtering the submissions that an agent receives. How can we eliminate the bad or increase the quantity of the good? The classic method is to make someone else do the work. (It worked for publishers, didn’t it?) Unless you want pay for that service, you need to get creative in a Tom Sawyer fashion.

My suggestion is to change the format of your Crapfest. Run it on a regular schedule. Pick five Snarklings whose literary taste most closely resembles yours. Have them vote on the submissions. You only read what they rate as the best.

- Edward

How long does it take you to read a one-page letter? Not long. Queries are one page. Furthermore, some queries are so badly written that you can give up at half a page with a clear conscience, or the first sentence will indicate that the book isn't in the agent's genre and thus can be rejected at once.

Agents decide on an individual basis whether it has a good ROI. If they have all the clients they need, they may shut down the queries completely for a while. But it's sure easier than conferences or contests.

The slush pile would be a more efficient system if the nitwits would do their research before they sent queries. I seriously wish when I was 15 and writing someone would've grabbed my wrist before I sent out queries. I did. I regret adding to the slush pile. I wasn't ready. So . . . .

I think Miss Snark's compatriots should have three form letters. One says: This Doesn't Suck, But We Can't Take It.

One says: This May or May Not Suck, So We Can't Take It.

One says: This Sucks So Bad I Can't Take It Anymore; I'm Slicing My Throat With the Edge of a Query From the Slush Pile.

Oh, maybe one more: This Is So Boring I Can't Even Tell If It's Bad.

Presumably if I'd gotten a handful of the last sort when I was 15 I would've ceased and desisted and looked at my material again before sending out queries.

The problem with electronic submissions is that the agent is more likely to reject a good query. It is all too easy to hit delete or say 'not quite right for me' without really reading what has been sent.

I am not sure why people get so hung up on the inefficiency of the process and the ROI and all that. Reading the slush pile is business development, plain and simple. Most professionals who have clients (versus products) have to do business development on some level-investment bankers, lawyers, what have you. In my line of work, sometimes business development has brought our firm $0. Sometimes it has brought our firm $10 million. You just never know.

I knew there was a reason I've always hated math...

I think the slushpile works for some genres but not all. I personally don't know any author in my genre of (thriller/suspense/mystery) who was accepted over the transom without some outside reference, assistance or previous pub credits.

Maybe we could start a poll of authors who have been accepted just from a Query letter, name of genre, etc.

Trigger finger -

If that agent missed your query by not being able to recognize your brilliance immediately, and deletig it with insufficient care, then you really want a better class of agent anyway.

I'm guessing the slush pile works because it mimics a reader's browsing behavior.

If an agent prefers to find new authors through referrals - well, so do readers. We're far more likely to pick up books recommended by friends (or Oprah). But there's also the thrill of discovering a new author on one's own - and the only way to do that is to stand in the library or bookstore, reading backcover blurbs and the first few pages, until one book grabs you and won't let go. If a new author can't stand out from the slush with a fresh voice and focused pitch - they'll likely never stand out, period.

When I started writing my comment, I was in full agreement with Maggie and tammy. The slush pile is inefficient for writers because it contains so much bad writing. Write well, and an experienced agent will see the quality among the trash.

The irony is that in order for the slush pile to be more efficient, bad writers have to leave off submitting and good writers have to be encouraged, even through rejection. Yet bad writers rarely recognize how bad they are, and agents have no incentive to tell them.

It is, as Miss Snark says, a lot easier to stay arm's length and say "not for me" than tell someone their writing sucks. The additional advice we all get is "query widely and often." This perpetuates--in fact, it increases--the amount of junk clogging up the system. Bad writers not only continue to query, but they begin to believe that persistence is what will make them successful, so they query more.

Thus, agents have no problem with the slush pile. In fact, it eliminates the need for them to render any negative judgment, just a simple "nope." Until the slush pile becomes painful for agents, it will persist as the mechanism for clearing the silt from the gold.

For my part, I will continue to focus on improving my writing and won't worry much about the selection process. We all know the rules, and we all dream of instant success. But just because we can type words into a computer doesn't mean we write good stuff. Write good stuff. It's really that simple.

Huh, I guess I do agree with Maggie and tammy after all.

It also seems worth noting that many of Miss Snark's referral clients probably originated in a slush pile, even if it wasn't her slush pile--some of them may have been friends or students or what have you of the referrer, but surely many of them were blind queries of the "this-is-good-but-not-right-for-me" variety.

And maybe there are one or two more people to whom Miss Snark suggested names of other agents--people who found their way to representation through her pile, even if they didn't end up at Snark Central. You know, tequila drinkers, or something

Publishers "pay" agents in the form of higher advances...

Except publishers don't really pay agents. Publishers pay authors. Authors pay a percentage of their earnings to agents. Big difference there.

I've only met one agent, Andrew Wylie, who gave me some sort of intellectual profile of himself. He said he'd studied with Albert Lord at Harvard (Albert Lord and Milman Parry transformed Homeric scholarship by doing work on oral composition in Yugoslavia). He said he'd translated Ungaretti. He talked about the time he'd met Beckett. Talked about quite a lot of other writers he admired (mainly not on his client list). Didn't talk about money.

Most of the things Wylie talked about are not in the public domain, and no amount of research will turn up that kind of information on other agents, or, for that matter, editors. (I've never seen any of the things I know about my former editor, Jonathan Burnham of HarperCollins, in the public domain.)

If I know that A loves Fellini, Sterne, Leone, Kurosawa, Gilliam's Brazil, Philip K. Dick's Man in the High Castle, Pamuk's My Name is Red, while B likes Coelho's The Alchemist, I am unlikely to trouble B failing abduction and brainwashing by aliens.

If agents and editors gave better information about themselves they would give themselves a very good chance of attracting writers they might want to work with, and a reasonable chance of eliminating many they wouldn't.

The written word is by no means an infallible means of communication; it's odd, all the same, to find the publishing industry rejecting it so systematically in favour of telepathy.

I'm with Miss Snark on this one. He may not get his act together right away, but I'll bet if you continue to be loyal to him, you'll find that he'll work off his behind for you.

Considering how long it takes to find an agent that you like, what's a few more months?

I agree. Besides, he's still got to make a living, so he'll have to keep working. In that respect alone, the fact that he chose you/your book speaks well of you and your book.

I'm completely with Miss Snark on this. Loyalty is a two-way street, nad if you want to receive it you have to give it.

And even if it doesn't work out, doing the right thing is good karma. (Hey, I'm a second-generation Californian. We're allowed to say things like that.)

I love this about loyalty. That personal connection is so very important.
If he has sales and you chose him -- give him a break.
IMHO

This is a difficult choice to make. While I do understand Miss Snark's position and the comments about the importance of loyalty, I also know that someone in the midst of an emotional/personal crisis may not be in the best position to evaluate his/her ability to work.

Perhaps you and your agent should have a frank talk about this and come up with an appropriate timeframe to reassess.

You can buy friends; you can't buy loyalty. Being down and out and learning who your real friends are, is a good ROI, so to speak. Being down and out and learning you have friends you didn't even know you had is priceless.

Loyalty is fine, but this isn't a personal relationship, this is business. You've already put in tons of work to get a publish-worthy manuscript.

It seems odd that the agent doesn't see fit to keep all of HIS clients, so how loyal is HE going to be if his personal problems begin to outweigh the time/energy it takes to sell your work?

He's already shown he thinks nothing of dropping his OTHER clients.

Ask for some type of time frame. He owes you that.

I disagree with everyone. That's breathtakingly bad advice for this author. People should be loyal to their friends. As you've often said, Miss Snark, agents don't fall into that category.

This agent is your business partner. From what you've said, he's in no shape to do business. All you'll do by staying with him is delay the publication of your book and maybe ruin your career in the process.

Yes, he'll be grateful and work hard for you — when he's up to it. Who knows when that will be? This is your life, author! Every agent should work hard for you, not just the one you took pity on.

Look, this man, in the midst of an emotional breakdown, going out to lunch looking like a wreck, bawling on your shoulder... he's the guy you want in charge of your career?

Miss Snark, would you keep a client who exhibited such behavior? I think not.

Author, it's time to find a new agent.

No relationship can last long enough to yield many benefits without loyalty. Not marriage. Not friendship. Not business partnerships.

After 50 years on this planet and 39 in the business world, I will tell you that the only serious mistakes I have ever made are ones of loyalty. Every major success I have had also involved loyalty.

You have a contract with him, I presume. Fulfill you part and tell him that you expect him to fulfill his. Tell him that you believed in him when you signed and you believe in him now.

- Edward

This is a business, not a friendship....??? How about: This is a country not a friendship, you don't need to feel loyalty? Sound strange? Because it is.

WTF do you people think loyalty is? Man, this is what I hate about modern business practices. Management try hard to foster loyalty in their employees, employees LIKE to feel loyalty to their employers. And we all end up faking it because, when it comes down to it, loyalty is no longer valued in business and no-one wins.

A little while ago I had to go talk to a shrink - and I'm not kidding about this - in part because the company I was working for, a great company, had a change of heart, fired middle management and went from friendly, fostering workplace to money-generating machine. And immeadiately burnt-out their top people. This was a workplace needing a lot of specific, specialist knowledge and the only people who had it worked for this company. You lose what they know, you can't get it back.

Most of us knew the company owed us some loyalty - We'd shown it to the company with unpaid work and etc. The company didn't feel the same way. End result? Employees of ten years standing, who had beent through hell for the company, left. Knowledge hard won, left. Even the average joe started to burn out. And the company screwed itself. It went from multi-million dollar enterprise to struggling consulting firm. In about two years.

While loyalty was there, it worked both ways, to everyones benefit - it was the job I held the longest, that paid the best with the nicest people and paid great benefits. And the company that had started from a living-room built itself over ten years into a massive business influence touching and effecting entire industries because the employees had no issue with going above and beyond. It could ask us to do near-anything and we'd sometimes grumble, but we'd do it.

And now it's basically a consulting firm with a crap telemarketting arm.

Yeah, loyalty's completely unimportant in business. And it's not like this guy is a real person with real feelings and real industry contacts. No, there's no way he'll bitch to his friends about the author who jumped ship. He'll know it was just business. Just like your next agent will know not to expect any loyalty at all from you and won't feel any to you, because it's just business.

Look, I'm not saying hold on no matter what. Eventually you may need to leave. But that point is the point where the agent is actively damaging your chances, or about to. Not when you see him on a bad day. Of course you're worried. Monitor the situation. Get your affairs in order and think about how you might leave if you have to. Then get back to work and do everything tyou can to make the current situation work. From a completely selfish standpoint - loyalty works, disloyalty doesn't. Stay until it doesn't feel disloyal to leave. That will be when you have good reason. At the moment, this guy still seems to be working hard for you. You don't have good reason to leave.

Okay, so he seemed wrecked at your lunch. That doesn't mean he doesn't steel himself for negotiations and sell the shit out of your work.

Give the man a chance to do his job.

Damn.

I love all the "loyalty" talk.

The man with the question states that his agent just DUMPED nearly ALL his clients because he can't take it anymore, yet most of you start lecturing him on "Loyalty."

Loyalty works both ways. Hello? If an agent just dumped most of his clients, but keeps YOU is that supposed to make you feel special and loyal to him?

What's to say that after four more months it won't happen to this writer as well?

I'd be very cautious here. Isn't it Miss Snark that is contantly telling us all, "Your agent is not your friend!"

Can I get lunch with Miss Snark (comped by her, of course) the next time she goes through a bad stretch?

Yes, I too am baffled by the assumption that loyalty is inevitably appropriate here. Loyalty to what? How long have they been together in this business? How well do they really know each other? The way people are talking about loyalty is putting this agent-author relationship on par with marriage. But it seems to a be a fairly new relationship--more like "been dating a few months". If things get bad it could well be appropriate to get out.
I agree with the suggestion that timeframes be discussed and a chance given. I don't agree at all with the obnoxious "how dare this person even think of looking out for their career, that's what's wrong with this country!" ranting.

It just makes me laugh that Miss Snark, a few posts up on the blog, is talking about dumping prospective clients because they don't get their bios into her fast enough. How long would a client last at Snark LIterary Agency if he took Miss to lunch wearing a rumpled suit, looking like hell, and started bawling about his personal life? Hello, people.

See, the thing is, everybody goes through rough times. I've been through plenty of personal trouble in my life, a painful divorce, my sister dropping dead from a heart attack at age 40, being diagnosed with what seemed at the time to be a really bad disease but has (thankfully) turned out to be nothing — I got and lost a book deal, people! – and I've never let it spill over into my business life. This agent is UNSTABLE.

Your career is too serious to go against your gut (the OP said they did not feel good about this agent anymore). This agent did nothing to instill confidence in you but played the sympathy card. I would definitely consider one of the other agents who were interested eight months ago. And it would be wise to do it promptly before this agent starts taking your ms out and things get messy.

This might be different if the agent had suddenly gotten ill. But a divorce? No.

I agree with Miss SNark on this, and I think Edward's comment is a strong and cogent second.

I can see the perils for the author, and the cause for unease.

But Miss Snark is right in saying: "I think there's a lot to be said for an agent who, while going through personal trauma, took the time to take you to lunch, explain things, and tell you he's confident he can sell your work."

He's still functional. He may do a better job for the author, via a stronger focus that will result from a pared-down list.

You also have to consider that the industry will know he is down and out, working out of his apt and going through a "nasty divorce" (that he had no part of whatsoever - they never do). Do you really think he'll be able to fight to get you the best deal possible?

Or will he take whatever any house offers? Will he be sharp enough to look over the contract for all the details that matter down the road?

I say if he's closing up his office, then you would be better served by another agent.

I'm with all the anonymouses. I knew someone who, upon recommendation, went with a savvy financial adviser (okay, not an agent, but still a business relationship requiring trust and knowledge).
He was young, hip and energetic. Then he went through a nasty divorce. Didn't return calls. Didn't shave. Wouldn't turn up at the office. My friend kept with him because she thought he would pull through and he assured her he would continue doing the absolute best for her.
By the end of the year, she had lost over $60,000 dollars in bad investments because he didn't keep his word. Hey, it was her money so no skin off his nose, right?
The road to hell, people; the road to hell....

Miss Snark has it right. My former agent lost her husband when I was with her, and for several months she was not her usual, peppy, hop-to-it, organized self. But she came out of it and was fine.

During those dark months, I made a point of keeping in slightly closer contact than usual, making sure things didn't fall through the cracks (because she was forgetting to do things).

Losing a husband (to an illness or accident) is not the same as going through a divorce for one thing. Also, did your agent shut down her office and try to work out of her apartment? Did she look like she was going to break down and did she let go of many of her clients because she knew she couldn't handle them?

This agent had only been handling the OP's career for eight months and it's not clear whether he had even tried to sell anything of hers yet.

Would love to hear a follow up from OP - not now but a year from now.

Does this agency have an extremely annoying flash website? If it's the same one, be careful. Every one of their clients' personal blogs has a plea to editors, along the lines of "If you'd like to publish my book, contact So-and-So Agent". The agency also has the same open-ended plea on their own website, which makes me think it's not a very proactive bunch.

I think this is dumb. Sounds like it just makes these new clients feel good about themselves. They are validated, REAL writers.
It also makes the agency look like they have more clients.
Be careful.

elektra, no it's not the agency you're thinking of. The agent used to be with one of the top five agencies and has since struck out on her own.

dan, simply put, your post is bullshit.

This agent is my agent and she's completely legit. I don't have my picture and bio up on her site and I know of at least one other client who doesn't, so the agent is not trying to make it seem like she has a ton of clients. She doesn't insist that we put our pictures and bios up, it's an option she offers if we're up for it.

These guys don't rep my genre, so I won't be querying, anyway.

Unless I'm having a huge brain fart, it's not an annoying flash web site; it's really a legitmate agency, started by an agent who used to work with one of the "Big Guy" agencies before branching off to fly solo.

I just personally wouldn't want my blurb out there while my novel was "being shopped." I'm all for promotion and thinking outside the box, but this one made me feel...edgy.

Why post clients before the work is sold? I don't understand the rationale.

I don't care if the agent is legitimate, it doesn't really have a point, does it? Or what am I missing here?

This may be some agents' way of doing business, but it sounds a bit unusual to post clients before they've sold anything.

Even if it's voluntary, a bit too "Idol-ish" for my taste.

My agent does this with at least some clients, particularly those with significant short story publishing credits. Or do you mean bios with no publishing or professional credits of any kind?

My father was on the 'gift book' list of the Phoenix Bookshop's Christmas book of Poetry, back in the early eighties. Nowadays, these poetry books run up to $300 in used bookstores, but they were just given away when they were made.

Self-publishing DOES almost work for some things (Poetry, cookbooks, etc.). I can't imagine a publisher would have a problem with something like this, though they might want some kind of explanation. Just keep production limited (small press type of distribution numbers, at most -- the 'gift books' my father had were all numbered as "(x) out of 75 copies" or something like that) and make sure it isn't something you'd worry about coming out in the papers ^_^.

My God, these people write and give each other novellas for Christmas? I'm doing well if I manage to send out Christmas cards to my friends before New Years...

Lulu.com is a fantastic tool. I used it to print off some draft copies of my novel to hand to local reader reviewers. They found it much easier to handle than a loose-leaf folder – especially the kids. I also set it up as a free download so that reviewers in other parts of the world could download it easily. It worked a treat. I didn’t give it an ISBN though – in my mind that is for proper publishing. My kids went wild when they saw dad’s book in print – I had to keep reminding myself it wasn’t the real thing though. A friend used it recently to print off a big glossy picture book of photos from a recent climbing expedition. He’s printing off six or seven copies to give to relatives. The quality is really good. I’m happy to use any tool at my disposal to achieve my goals, but I know Lulu.com won’t get me into the top sellers lists.

Sounds like a sensible use of self-publishing technology to me ... and a very sweet idea. Happy Christmas!

I blogged a "short book of short stories" and wanted to give my mother a hard copy for Christmas (2005) so she could read them. Instead of using Lulu.com, I actually did the book on my computer and printed one. I used a 5"x8" pad of unlined note paper. I used 110lb weight paper for the covers, and I glued the spine with Tacky glue. I even printed a spine and slapped on a wide piece of clear tape.

I like it so much that I printed an additional 4 for others. I inscribed each one and facetiously suggested that they hold on to it as that book may become a collector's item someday.

I think my book turned out well, and I got some great feedback.

Depending on how many copies you need, an alternative would be to print the story in booklet format on a laser printer so that when it's cut in half you have a 5.5X8.5 inch book. Have the copies GBC bound. You can probably have a limited number of copies made from file to booklet at Staples or Kinkos, for example, at a fraction of the cost--again depending on what the minimum is that Lulu would charge. It wouldn't look as professional as Lulu, but it might be a good compromise.

Okay. I've heard the name enough from Miss Snark. I'm going to go buy a book by Lee Child to see what is so great about this author. Maybe I'll not only be entertained but learn something.

I agree with anonymous above. I'm so busy icing the cut-out cookies, wrapping the gifts, and trying to write a chapter or two, that to pump out a novella and get it done in time to publish and distribute?? Yikes!

BTW, isn't it March?

What's the thing that Otto Penzler does at Christmas time just for fun? God, woman, don't be such a tease!

Lunchies, drinkies and bail are on me.

Probably in that order,too.

I'd be the coolest in the cooler if Miss Snark posted bail for me.

Bail?! The agent of my dreams, and she's only a fantasy!

Is it sad that I'm tempted to misdemeanor merely to call Miss Snark for bail?

Oooh, are there any minor crimes that involve George Clooney? If not, maybe I could just TP Mel Gibson's house. Though certain cops may be more inclined to join than arrest me...

Lunchies, drinkies and bail are on me.

Why didn't you say so before? Now I know I need an agent!

"a group of lizards is a lounge"

HA! You caused me to spew coffeee with that as, at the same time I was reading your blog, my darling sadistic feline walked through the door of our tropical home with yet another lizard clamped in its jaws.

Wish I'd thought of that one. Thanks!

My impression is that expenses are way down with the advent of electronic submission. Attaching a doc file to an email costs nothing compared to Fedex, etc.

I initially snail-mailed my proposal to my agent, and she asked me to email her a copy so she work on being able to share it more easily.

My agent deducts expenses such as photocopies, postage, and messenger fees. I don't recall if she has a specific cap, but the deductions have always been reasonable so it's never been an issue.

And I know this because Miss Snark told me so when I asked her last year after finding the clause in my contract: Legitimate agents will NEVER ask for a check upfront from the client. Whatever that small expense fund might be ($150, $250, $350), it will be deducted from the income; meaning, don't pay an agent upfront for expenses. Expect to see those expenses deducted from the first check you receive on a book that has been sold.

It's nice to know that an agent will bail you out of jail. I'm supposing that you'd have to be a good client to get that service. Or perhaps a real money maker. What I'm wondering is how many writers do end up in jail and for what?

And if you live in NYC and your client lives on the West Coast, do you wire the money or do you come pick them up?

Thanks for the advice river falls - always good to hear it from someone on the other side of the fence...

Re: snarkling-
From dict.die.net:

"-ling \-ling\ (-l[i^]ng). [AS. -ling.]
A noun suffix, commonly having a diminutive or a depreciatory force; as in duckling, gosling, hireling, fosterling, firstling, underling."

Sorry. I've been a Deadhead, I've been a Parrothead, I am a gearhead; I could perhaps call myself a Snarkhead, because I do enjoy your site, and head as a suffix denotes enthusiasm. Snarkhead would denote loyal following *without* causing one to feel belittled, or cute. So no ling for me. Whenever I've read the word, I've imagined a bunch of fuzzy little sheeplike creatures following a woman in high heels with a yappy dog who thinks he's a shepherd and nips at the heels of said fuzzy creatures to keep them in line. No thanks. But thanks for the site and the information, anyway.

If Miss Snark would free me from my obligations to my owner by paying a large ransom (say large enough to self-publish my new semi-biographical novel, Don Juan as a Goat) I'd be most grateful.

Send the money to a numbered Cayman Islands account (I'll send you the number in an email) and after I get it, I'll go on the lamb (only figuratively, of course; I don't DO sheep).

I'll abscond to a petting zoo located near an airport in ... say ... umm New Jersey. You can pick me up in a limo and we'll fly off to Brazil. They don't extradite goats from Brazil, do they?

Then we can dance the night away in Rio. It doesn't matter to me at all that you only have two legs and no hooves. At least it's something I can overlook. ...

Bill E. Goat

PS: My mistress has seen this and is forcing me to admit that I have two left hooves, don't dance well, and need a bath.

She's also making me tell you that I don't have a numbered account (yet). And she is making me say that if you want me, you can have me for free, no ransom needed, though you should still free to send me the money. And she's repeating that she won't pay to have my wonderful, biographical, and explicit novel published. She says, in her most insulting way, that the world doesn't care how many French Alpines I've known and loved. I'm certain she's wrong, aren't you?

Dear Miss Snark, you must rescue me from a life of servitude to a mean Princess who doesn't appreciate my literary talent and who doesn't understand the difference between a great smell and spoiled cabbage! Bath indeed!

If I don't respond to your emails right off, don't worry. I'm hiding out until the threat of soap and water dissipates.

Y'know I checked three dictionaries just now and only one of them defined "murder" was a flock of crows.

* The New Oxford American Dictionary 2nd Edition has no mention of crows under "murder" (you can check, it comes with mac OS X).

* Webster's New World Dictionary 3rd College Edition also mentioned no crows.

* Dictionary.com, based on some American Heritage dictionary, defines "murder" as a flock of crows and also includes it in a note on synonyms for "flock".

I've been doing this a lot since starting to write a novel. It's starting to bother me when my dictionaries don't agree, Miss Snark.

(This post was brought to you courtesy of Dan Procrastinating, Ltd., a subsidiary of DanCo International.)

So let me see if I've got this pecking order right; editors buy lunches for agents who buy lunches for writers. Sounds like the editor has the roughest deal, and the agent spends the most time at lunch.

Word verification: hyxob - a very old fashioned candy.

I don't know, Scott. "Snarkhead" sounds a lot like "snakehead." You know, those evil fish everybody wants to eliminate?

How about "Snarkerati"? "Snarkophile"? "Snarkoholic"? "Snarkster"? "Snark-struck"?

How about Snarknik?

According to my abstruse mathematical calculations, that is four manuscripts per year. If you are only getting 15% per MS and that is keeping Killer Yapp in dog food living in a place as expensive as Brooklyn, those books are generating some serious money, not the movie money you said earlier.

Get ready to receive the most brutally honed MS since THE ODYSSEY. I promised it and now I feel like sending it. I need to give it another once over and it will be in the mail. No cookie crumbs or glitter or anthrax-resembling white power, just pages.

Yikes. You must be one helluvan agent.

That's NEW clients, not number of sales. I have 20+ clients all busy with projects, plus backlist.
I'm not some sort of money machine.

You have to dream.
You have to.
Dreaming makes it possible.
Working hard makes it probable.

Miss Snark, there's one vital stat you left out: of the clients you sign, what percentage get published?

Here's a link to Kristen's 2006 stats for comparison:

http://pubrants.blogspot.com/2006/12/year-in-statistics.html

Art

Kristen is also locatd in Denver and takes on local authors more readily than a NY agent would be inclined to. Local authors there are a different matter.

Hey, Mark:

If you check Kristen's blog she says of 20,800 queries she signs 8 clients. That is one client for every 2600 queries. So Miss Snark is easier to please than Kristen. Besides, she is in my favorite town, not off in some snowdrift somewhere.

If you are paying yourself a modest $80,000/year (which you must be at least to live in NY) and selling 20 books/year at a commission of 15%, then the average gross per book is about $27,000, which means you are not representing primarily fiction, and certainly not noobs. I have read a LOT of unpublished noob stuff and I don't think Borat could get any of it published in Kazakhstan.

Boffo. All the success in the world to you, Miss Snark. You're doing good.

Wow, the odds are only 1200 to one? And better than that if my writing doesn't suck?

YAY!

That'll keep BIC for weeks.

so you're saying there's a one in fifteen chance of a write with demonstrable talent being signed by any given agent.

What this says to me is that someone who has sent out more than about 60 queries is not demonstrating any talent in those queries. That must mean either a.) Their query is not representative or b.) they have no talent to demonstrate.

If that's the case, don't you think that polite form rejections are actually doing these people a disservice? If they suck, wouldn't it be better to tell them that? If they aren't packaging themselves well, wouldn't it be better to tell them that?

I have yet to send off a single query ever, being a poet, money just is sort of a laughable pipedream for me. But i have to say, when journals reject me, i much prefer people tell me they don't like my work than to say "this isn't right for our magazine" or "needs work." I know people who say those sorts of things are often trying to be polite, but seriously, if somebody thinks i suck, or at least, thinks what i've sent sucks, I would prefer that they tell me that. Otherwise I'm going to keep trying to get published by them, operating under the delusion that they aren't worthless hacks with no eye for talent.

That's not as depressing as I thought it would be.

http://averageidea.com

Ah, but then there's Harriet Klausner's job as a "reviewer." ("Amazon.com's #1 Reviewer" for those in the know.) She "reads" and reviews an average of 30 books a day!

I am curious what Miss Snark thinks of Harriet Klausner, the legitimacy of her reviews (chock full of errors, obviously has NOT read books she reviews.) Does Ms. Klausner help increase book sales? If ever I have a book published, should I swallow my indignation, send her a free book and enjoy the revel in the automatic four or five stars she ALWAYS rates her reads?

And thank goodness for all the people that love to read. Here's a job: buyer of books.

Ha! TV development as well. I was so surprised to realize that my first job consisted of writing book report after book report.

Get your MLS, my dear. NO, librarians certainly do not read all the time, but there are definite perks, as far as proximity to new releases, etc. are concerned. And if you get to be a selector/collection development specialist, you get to choose which ones to buy, too.

Don't even get me started on Harriet Klausner. Her reviews of my books never fail to contain at least one significant error, one plot spoiler, and a LOT of evidence that she skimmed random sections of the novel and built her "review" upon the dust jacket copy. At least she's better than Kirkus, whose reviewers apparent never read the book at all.

Why publishers are legitimizing her by sending her review copies baffles me. I guess they believe no publicity is bad publicity.

Having been paid to read slush, I can also attest that, if you're not careful, it can seriously damage your enthusiasm for reading . . . Luckily I'm not doing that anymore.:)

You hire a person to represent your interests and then you don't listen to them or take their advice?

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard of - totally, absolutely clueless. honestly, I'm seldom this blunt, but that takes the complete idiot cake.

Um... to do such a thing would be to suffer from Head-Up-Ass-Syndrome.

I think many people conjecture that they hypothetically could feel this way when their agent is submitting their work to editors. In reality? You are so elated when you have publishers interested and you see a variety of offers you DO listen to your agent.
I hear more regret from those who went it alone with NO agent.

Well, I HAVE had this happen. Granted, the offer was for a different sort of book -- the editor wanted nonfiction (the novel was based on fact) -- and it would have required significant rewriting, but it was a solid offer from a very respectable house and very respected editor. The author turned it down, not because he didn't want to rewrite it, but because it wasn't enough money to rewrite it. Frustrating for me, but it's the author's book. Sadly, we haven't sold the novel elsewhere.

As a general rule, though, once an editor makes an offer for a book, there's usually some room for negotiation. If the author doesn't like the advance amount, there are payment schedules and subrights splits, etc., that can be negotiated to make the deal more palatable.

I only whooped for joy when I heard about the deal my agent struck. And without lifting a finger, she called me next day saying she had negotiated x amount more for the foreign rights. That extra was the easiest money ever made, just sitting on my butt and hearing the phone ring.

(Of course, if my book is a big bestseller, I might regret the foreign rights sale. But I'll be happy to be in a position to have such regrets.)

Oooops, Dave, you're not supposed to say "hire" an agent. Apparently, that is a no-no word, although Miss Snark has not yet told us snarklings which word she prefers. I wish she would, because I'd like to avoid being a nitwit by using the wrong word.

I haven't commented here in quite a while. But some of you guys are too quick to be calling an author who would refuse a deal "clueless."

Let's say one is not wet behind the ears and happy to settle for anything. Let's say, along with previous publications, one is led to believe a six figure advance can be obtained because a number of agents(4, 5 or 6) have clamored over being chosen to represent your proposal or manuscript. Each tells you they will get you good money. But your manuscript does not get that kind of offer from editors. It is not unheard of that the author might refuse or reluctantly accept a much lower offer than they have expected.

And yes, this may lead to disappointment with your agent and even a parting of ways after the book is published. Don't think for a minute that agents, in their enthusiasm to win a client when they know others are interested, won't throw out numbers of what they THINK they can sell the book for. Many of us have been pumped up prematurely and then had to decide to accept a low offer or walk away. Everyone is not so star-stuck simply with being published that they will accept any low-ball offer. Some of us have had some of the best agents in the business throw out lofty numbers that could not be realized in the marketplace. Pie in the sky never makes it into your mouth.

poster said:

Don't think for a minute that agents, in their enthusiasm to win a client when they know others are interested, won't throw out numbers of what they THINK they can sell the book for.

Amen.
I had three offers of representation, and I went with the agent who had brokered some powerful deals. When it didn't pan out, our relationship fizzled. I should have gone with the one who offered first and really, really loved my book.

"won't throw out numbers of what they THINK they can sell the book for"

Ha!! Real estate agents do this ALL the time. It's called "buying a listing." People want to hear bigger numbers, and if someone tells you they'll get you more, it's human nature to go for it (even if it's not realistic.)

With regard to 'hiring' an agent - I'd personally go with something along the lines of 'sign up with an agent', or 'be taken on by an agent', or possibly even just 'find an agent' if your fingers are tired. 'Hiring' is done by the boss, who decides who to hire and who has other employees besides you. But with books, it's basically the agent who decides which writers to represent, and who has lots of other people on their books. In terms of balance, it's more as if the agent hired the writer.

That isn't quite the case either, of course, but it's a bit disrespectful to speak of 'hiring' an agent as if they came to you cap in hand for work. The cap was in the writer's hand, and let's not forget it. The question is now how to get it filled with lots of lovely money for both of you, of course.

I agree there are more writers that need agents than vice versa.

But these days writers are being told to make demands of agents. Go on some of these writer sites and it's unbelievable what writers tell others they should do. Not surprisingly, those making such ludicrous demands are unpublished.

If my agent (hee hee) tells me to whistle dixie out my a$#hole to sell my book I'm listening. I hope to pay him a lot of money to do what he does well. One of the first things I said to him when we agreed to work together is "Great! Now this book is YOUR baby. Go do what you do." I'm sitting tight until he calls me with an offer, offers, auctions, pre-empts or the dreaded, nobody loves me everybody hates me I'm gonna eat some worms.

I believe "engage" an agent is a fairly neutral term, implying a sort of mutuality (like engaged gears). That's the least clumsy term I could come up with that doesn't imply one or the other person is the effect of the deal.

"Contracted with" is passable.

I don't care whether you use "hire" or "engage" or "contract" or WHATEVER verb your semantically-enhanced intellect desires.

If you put your novel into the hands of an agent to sell it and then don't take their advice, you're stupid.

If you retain a lawyer for legal advice and then ignore him/her, your'e stupid.

SO I repeat, If you make a deal with a person to represent your interests and you ignore their advice, you're an nitwit.

Argueing what word to use to describe the contract (and it is a legal contract between you and your agent) is wasting time. You'all should be writing and polishing your novel. I respect the fact that Miss Snark (an agent) may desire certain words but argueing the "word" to represent that contract is worse than silly.

Now be adults, not children, and go read what a "Contract" is and why it binds both people to a course of action.

A contract begins with an offer (please repesent my book to publishing houses and get it published, marketed and into bookstores) and a meeting of the minds (for a good advance, for royalties, for foreign rights, for subsidiary matters, all that stuff in the contract) and the consideration is 15% of what the author earns.
Then the agent begins to work and the author waits.

Now do you see why it is nitiwttery for the author to reach the end of a deal and say "I wanted more!" That wasn't part of the meeting of the minds. An unspoken thought cannot be part of a contract. An agent is not clairvoyant. If the author wants that much more, then he/she should have told the agent up front and made it part of the contract.

SO I stand by my original statement with all due respect to agents and their good work.

Anonymous #3: your comment reminds me of how some unscrupulous real estate sales people work. They'll tell you they can get X amount for your house and then once you've signed tell you the market has changed and now you have to put your house for much less.

Is it true that you should only sign with an agent if they are absolutely head over heels in love with your manuscript . . .even if you have no other offers forthcoming?

It is SO HARD to sell a book, why would you disagree with your agent outright? "Uh, thanks but I'd rather NOT make any money or have any fame, and continue to survive on Ramen and boiled rice for another few years."
I don't think so!
-Alex

If you have only one offer of representation, and it's not an agent who's "head over heels in love" with your work, it means the agent thinks he can sell the project. Period. But don't think for a moment there is anything more than that involved, and don't think if the agent can't sell your work there will be any sort of loyalty to you.
My agent worked to sell my manuscripts for three years. The only reason is that she loves my writing. Finally, we're celebrating the sale of one. She's not getting rich and neither am I. But we hope, someday....

Actually, not to spark a flame war about verbs and agents, but I always thought writers "worked" or "signed" with agents. And usually it's the agent who "takes on" the client rather than the other way around. If we could just hire, contract or engage a literary agent everyone would have one.

"Royalty statements are notoriously complex and unclear. Even the publishers can't explain them."

You're telling me. I still get a complex royalty statement twice a year from S&S for a book that as far as I know has been out of print for 15 years and not sold a single copy since....

Just wait until you get your 'net profits' statement from your film sale.

Have you, Miss Snark, used an audit company? Know anybody who has? I don't know anyone who has personally done an audit, Authors Guild don't either, and I'd like to know if there is a reputable company out there who performs this service.