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Don't you think one reason for that book's success is that the average reader is not really that discriminating about things like style or even grammar? When a writer "hones his craft," it's at least partly because he has to get his work past an editor, and editors have more discerning taste than the average reader. That's one reason they're editors.

And for this, I am happier than I can express while typing on a smart phone. I don't care how campy, or whatever, a story is. If the writing is as bad as it is in that book, I can't get past it. I want to take a red pen and mark the crap out of it, and I'm not even an editor.

Glad to know there is still sanity in the publishing/ agent world. Thank you.

Thank you.

Plain and simple.

Because as both a reader and a writer, I'm still lost on the 50 Shades excitement :-)

I actually like that, in theory at least. It's punk rock publishing: No skill, no talent, no ability, just three chords and a message that resonates with your audience. And that's all you need, really: the ability to speak to your audience. Lack of musicianship is not only not a problem, but can be parlayed into a selling point: it's proof of your authenticity.

The thing to keep in mind is that this does not diminish the value of good craftsmanship. During the era of punk, we still had traditional rock and pop bands that succeeded in selling records. We also had people who could make themselves heard with less. One does not negate the value of the other. Is it for everyone? No. But it's a way to get noticed.
-LupLun
Shooting for the Moon

I won't lie, it's an odd message for those of us wanting to go into the industry. It's like, I obsess over style, grammar, pacing, prose, structure, but should I? I may be stylistically proud of a book in the end, but will it sell? Have I been wasting my time obsessing over something that might become 'old fashioned'? Should I put the grammar books down and crack open some Twilight or pull a Cassandra Claire and run a fanfiction piece through search and replace and call it a day? This is a very odd time for writing, a very odd time indeed. Agents, editors, books and history all tell us one thing, but the bestseller list goes out of its way to tell us the exact opposite. It's not discouraging, it's more confusing.

There is one thing that can explain it:

Twinkies

For some people junk is what they want all the time. For others, junk is an occasional guilty indulgence. For still others, they only try the junk once. Add all those people together and that is a lot of Twinkies.

Thing is - the market won't withstand 100s of types of Twinkies. And it is difficult to pin down exactly WHAT makes a Twinkie appealing anyway - except its vague resemblance to cake which you already love.

Editors who are looking for the 'next' 50 Shades are looking for the 'next' Twinkie.

Good luck.

It's not that hard to explain if you know why the book took off in the first place. Fans of the fanfiction the writer wrote for Twilight pushed the book to their friends. If not for the established fanbase and the idea that the main characters were actually Bella and Edward (shh... don't tell, it's a dirty little secret, wink, wink) it never would have been a success at all.

People who first bought 50 Shades, weren't buying 50 Shades at all. They were buying Twilight porn. They passed the book around to others, creating hype, and then others bought the book because of the hype.

Kristin,

I am glad someone else is in agreement with this one. I posted on this one and was suddenly bombarded by people thinking this was a piece of great writing. Personally it scares me, if they think this was good writing, what do you think their writing will be. I, like you would not have been an agent to have seen what the "genius" was in that book.

I haven't read it, but the success of well-written novels makes me want to be a better writer.

And as much as this might make me sound bitter, the success of "not well written" novels makes me bang my head into my keyboard.

BUT

I'm wondering if this is part of the deal. People like it for the reason that it's bad. That they feel they could do better, if they had the time and could be bothered? It's not so well written that people feel threatened?

I don't know.

What the heck, I'll bang my head on the keyboard and see if I feel better.

It's not consistently good writing (though it isn't consistently bad either) -- but it is good storytelling.

It's accessible literature that doesn't speak down to the reader. Everyone I've spoken to who has read the stories either as fanfic or as "original" fiction agree that it's not mentally engaging but it grabs them emotionally, the characters grab you by the left nipple clamp and drag you along for the ride.

Just like with the people in our lives, if you love something enough you can see beyond the scars, scabs and other imperfections.

The twinkie post is spot on, as was the post about the Twilight fan base. The trilogy is an anomoly, and I don't think it's because the average reader can't tell good writing from bad. As much as I cringe while reading (and I am reading it), there are other parts I enjoy. The author has managed to make me care about these characters.

I have no interest in reading this "hot" book, so I totally can relate to how you feel. I prefer women's fiction with intelligence. If I want a 50 Shades... vibe I'll read Penthouse Letters. ;-)

50 Shades of Grey is not my cup of tea. I can't get past the horrific prose to enjoy the story.

But worse than the author's repetitive descriptions, cardboard characters, and use of the term "inner goddess", are the people who say, "If this can become a bestseller, I should write a book". Or worse, "If this is a bestseller, why can't you even get an agent?" (I've heard that second one twice. Makes me want to beat my head against a wall).

I don't know why this book has been successful. I'm going to agree with the previous poster who talked about the Twilight fanbase and hype.

With the rise of the Kindle, there was always going to be a break out "mommy porn" bestseller. In my opinion, this was the wrong book being hyped up at the right time.

That's interesting. I haven't really paid much attention to the reviews, because I haven't paid the book. But I just assumed that it was well-written because it was a best-seller. On the other hand, I've read plenty of popular books that I didn't like very much.

Have chosen not to read SHADES OF GREY, but I'm curious. Was the book neither professionally edited nor copyedited or was the poor writing deliberate?

Dittoing "twinkies" and "Twilight porn" and "breakout mommy porn bestseller" comments above. Those are all spot-on.

FWIW, as a real book, it's pretty bad. As a sexy fanfic, it's pretty good. And a lot of people read sexy fanfics that are a whole lot (a WHOLE LOT) worse and enjoy them.

I'm still "wtf"ing that a fanfic is a NYT best-seller, but then again, it's not like it's the first time a really terrible book has hit it big. Da Vinci Code, anyone? I have a book called Killer Crabs that was apparently a best-seller in the 70s. I've never read it all the way through, but when I feel down on myself I crack open a few pages and it makes me smile.

I'm kind of hoping the slush pile floods with 50 Shades clones. Then it'll be that much easier to discard them and see the really good queries ;)

The thing is, as a fanfic reader, knowing this story was originally fanfic, I find it a little hilarious. Because there are at least hundreds, probably thousands or more, stories of similar content, quality, and length across various fandoms--all available for free, written and read for the pure enjoyment of it. There's absolutely no need to pay money for this kind of story.

Honestly, I bet a lot of the reason it's popular is because it started as fanfic. Posted first as fanfic for Twilight, rode Twilight's coattails to gain an audience, then published with an already established fanbase who's internet-savvy and likely posted early rave reviews. I imagine that had a lot to do with it, because it certainly doesn't seem like it would have been successful if it had come out of the gate as an original novel.

People may notice and get excited about shooting stars, but those burn out and are completely forgotten. People may not pay much attention to the stars, but they've been burning for billions of years.

I'd rather be the star...

I work in a library, and I have no interest in reading 50 Shades (yet), but I will occasionally flip to a random page if a copy passes through my hands as I put it up on the hold shelf. It may actually be the first book I've ever encountered that falls into the "so bad it's good" category. It's the Birdemic of books.

The page I remember that made me snort ran something along the lines of, "I knew Dr. Greene was curious about my relationship with Mr. Grey, but I doubted she could possibly imagine his RED ROOM OF PAIN, or what went on between us there." (Emphasis mine.)

I bet she could if you tried her. She is a doctor, after all.

I haven't read it but it makes me cringe to hear libraries are pulling it off shelves. If I choose to read it, the library is where I'd go because I wouldn't want to drop a dime. And libraries are not supposed to censure, even in Florida and Georgia.

I read 50 Shades when it was a fan fic at the urging of my sister, who is, and I'm loathe to admit this, addicted to the Twilight saga and reads a huge amount of fan fiction. I'm a writer and after I read the first few pages of Ms. James story, I commented that the writing was horrific. My sister begged me to keep reading, saying that the writing got better. Um, no, it really didn't, but here's why I think it's such a success-the author took the Edward and Bella characters to a whole new level. What Stephenie Meyer wouldn't do with the characters, E.L. James did, and for those women who became obsessed with Edward, this was just the perfect thing for them. Yes, the writing is awful, and yes, as a writer who is trying to be published and doing everything 'right' to make that happen, the fact that this author got a seven figure deal for these books is just plain disheartening.

I agree wholeheartedly. If you are a real writer, you are SUPPOSED to care about things like grammar and punctuation. Unless you are doing it on purpose like e.e. cummings, there is no excuse for shoddy grammar. I agree that telling a good story is more important than grammar overall, but I think being lazy about grammar just makes you a hack. I'm curious to read the book but I don't want to support it by buying it. People may be able to overlook the problems as they get into the story, but why should they have to? Get an editor and show some respect for the craft!

Like a lot of writers, I can't help but be impressed when a self-published book takes off because it just shows that nobody really knows what will sell. Right now I'm being told that my gay-themed book won't sell because the audience is too small (as if only gay people would read it...I'm not gay and I wrote it!) I will probably self-publish it eventually because I am really passionate about the story. If it sells 10 copies, that's better than nothing. But I'm going to learn how to self-publish, hire an editor, and do it RIGHT because I care about my craft.

What exactly has changed since time immemorial? Isn't The Davinci Code the best selling novel of all-time? there have always been, and always will be, literary geniuses and mass-market bestsellers. there is a story well-written and a story well-told. Sometimes they converge, sometimes they don't.

It's all a matter of taste and unfortunately, the public's taste is growing crasser every day.

As far as the cultural acceptance of poor literature, I personally blame the American education system.

But it comes right back to what people want and it's really not so surprising that what they want is publically displayed sex.

I guess that makes the second culprit in the case Hollywood.

And who has been in charge of the American educational system and of Hollywood for DECADES?

Liberals.

Don't overthink it. As others have said--the initial success was from the Twilight fans and now it's expanded via word of mouth into the mommy porn group (which has some crossover with Twilight).

But I think Kristin's real concern is that she's now going to see 50 shades of imitators (and I fully expect publishers to publish imitators). I feel sorry for the slush pile readers!

I wonder, in 50 years will our grandchildren be singing its praises? The Great Gatsby is a classic now, but it's riddled with pages and pages of dialog that honestly is very difficult to follow. Yet, my rather intelligent professor in college explained that the vague-ness and all of the things left out of the story were part of what made it great and is an extension of the period.

IMO, 50 shades is a product of our time - good or bad.

Ummm. And maybe because it's about sex?

The story, like several other best sellers, isn’t written well but if you get past the writing sometimes the story can suck you in. Although with this one the first two books were easier to get through then the third. The third jumped a lot in the start, I think it broke several more literary rules then the first two.

All the same a story is all most people need. It does make a writer cringe to know that we pour our hearts out to make our stories look their best and then something else gets published that is ...subpar. Maybe it’s jealousy who knows. All I know is that I want my work to looks it’s best because that is what people will know me by. So yes she got published but she will forever be tainted as the writer with a good story that was poorly written. That does taint any further writing she might do.

That being said i know people are crazed that it was fan fiction. Well maybe it was but it is original enough that if you didn't know it was fan lit you probably wouldn't have made an Edward Bella connection.

Maybe the devil still makes agreements for 7 years?

I'm not sure this a one-in-a-million instance. Did we all read "Twilight?" I don't know if any one used the moniker "well-written" for that either.

As an aspiring writer it is frustrating that these blockbuster titles are so sub-par from a craft standpoint. Of course, "The Hunger Games" has been an exception to that trend.

I agree with MegS-Twilight was very popular, but well-written it was not. I think some authors are good story tellers, not necessarily good writers and vice versa. If it makes things harder for agents, it certainly has to make things harder for writers who actually come up with original stories. I'm less troubled by the fact that the writing is so poor (which I think universally acknowledged) than the fact that this was FAN FICTION originally.

Obviously the story resonated with many, many folks, or they wouldn't haven't bought it, told their friends about it, blogged about it, etc, etc.

Complain all you want about the grammar and other such issues with the books. E L James is now very rich because of her books. Doesn't matter how it started. Fanfic, or whatever. She's enjoying her day in the spotlight. As writers, we should all be congratulating our fellow writers on their success -- not browbeating them because you thought their work was sub-par.

Her work isn't going to affect your work. Her books are not going to affect the future of printed works. Not even the saleability of your work. Don't worry about it.

Let's not all forget one specific point: books are not a zero-sum game. Just because consumers are buying up her books doesn't mean that they won't buy yours!

Don't trash her fans. You might loose a fan because of it.

I saw this at Barnes and Noble and skimmed through a few pages and immediately put it down. Erotica isn't remotely my taste to begin with, and the writing sealed the deal. Then I was at Costco with my mom, turned the corner around the book table and BOOM: 50 Shades of Grey. At Costco?! That's when you know something's blowing up. I'll echo what some others have said: Twilight. Twinkies. Good storytelling does not = good writing. If you look at all of the juggernaut books of the last 15 years you'll find a common theme: good storytelling. Harry Potter, Twilight, Da Vinci Code, Hunger Games, The Help - all written with varying degrees of skill but also with a compelling story and characters people connect to. I think what the success of this book proves is that the public is willing to ignore bad writing if the story is something they're invested in. I know if I were published, though, I'd want to be known for my writing skill AND my storytelling. It's the authors who land in that sweetspot whose books live on the longest.

I think these things just happen. As an aspiring author, this in no way gives me any ideas about not going about things the right way! People should chalk this up to being a fluke. I would never want to have a bestseller that people refer to as "not well written". (Well, I might appreciate the money...but I digress.) If I get published I want to be darn proud of what I put into the world. I think the person that would want to try their hand at this kind of luck would be the same people to write poorly anyway. Maybe not, just my thoughts! :) It makes me think of this quote.

"I'm a great believer in luck and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it." Thomas Jefferson

There is nothing at all surprising about the success of this. You may love creme brulee or Godiva chocolates, but every once in awhile (and MUCH of the time for the more crass ppl out there), you just want--you guessed it: a twinkie. --though I never much liked twinkies myself. A Hershey bar will do just fine.

I haven't read this novel. But have been seeing a lot of tweets and blog posts about it.

This post (okay, mostly the comments) makes me feel sad and tired as both a reader and a writer. The writing in 50 Shades won't win any prizes, sure, but it was not unreadable despite all the verbal shuddering going on in this thread. In fact, I'd say it was comparable to many, many, many other genre books out there. Yes, the prose is merely serviceable (and that is more than okay for millions of readers, you must realize), but it isn't some garbled, unreadable mess like people are making it out to be. As to the book's success...most people read the book for the story, and the story is pretty gripping. Ms. James spins a good yarn. There was a spark there.

For the record, I'm not some 50 Shades fangirl. I'm not even 100% sure the author's last name is James, haha! Erotic lit is not really my cup of tea. I read the first book, but not the subsequent ones, etc. And when I picked it up, I had no idea it originated as Twilight fanfic. I just thought--hey, this looks like a fun and fluffy and slightly kinky read, I've seen a lot of people raving about it, and I feel like taking a break from heavy literature right now. And you know what, I enjoyed it. It was fluff, some of it was cheesy, some of it was repetitive. Okay. But when everyone starts wailing that THIS IS THE END OF GOOD LITERATURE FOREVA OMG WE ARE DOOMED, or worse, WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE UNWASHED MASSES WHO LIKE THIS DRIVEL??, that's when I start to roll my eyes. Are we so out of touch with the world? People enjoy interesting stories. People like something that grabs them, even if it isn't a breathtaking masterpiece of literary genius. Let's not be hipster snobs here and pretend we can't comprehend this. I get a little confused/frustrated sometimes when people DON'T like a breathtaking masterpiece of literary genius, but not when people like the lighter fare. And yes, you can like both.

I'm sure Ms. James aspires to improve her craft. She's admitted the writing isn't brilliant. She knows she has room for improvement. And hey, not everybody gets to be (or wants to be) Jonathan Franzen or Jeffrey Eugenides. I hope she continues to grow as a writer without losing the spark and passion that brought her so many fans in the first place. But I wish writers didn't feel the need to hate on each other so much, especially when someone they deem unworthy achieves success. I've observed the same phenomenon with Stephenie Meyer (from fellow writers, mind you), and it just baffles me. I understand that she isn't going to win the next Pulitzer for fiction, but she's still a author telling stories people love, and I think that deserves at least some respect from her community of fellow writers. But no, she's treated with a lot of scorn and derision. It just makes me sad.

FWIW, I'm not against discernment when it comes to writing. In fact, I think that's extremely important, and I'm studying the work of authors like Flannery O'Connor and Joyce Carol Oates (and not the work of Ms. Meyer or Ms. James) when I want to learn something about excellent writing, sure. But I am against all the fellow author-bashing. It isn't very classy.

What can I say? I've never heard of this book. Which puts it in company with my book, Tainted Souls, which most people have never heard of. So I'm good company, I guess?

Twilight wasn't so well written, either, and that didn't seem to hurt sales.

Because for some reason women like to read about a poor girl getting beat all in the means of sex?

No thank you. I'd rather read Twilight again then suffer through the series.

I haven't read Fifty Shades of Grey and I won't either. The story doesn't interest me in the least. So I went to Amazon and read the first two pages.

James's prose has the same quality that Stephanie Meyers, Dan Brown, Nora Roberts, Clive Cussler, WEB Griffin, Janet Evanovich, James Patterson, Stephen King, John Grisham, Julie Garwood, Jayne Anne Krentz, Susan Elizabeth Philips, Robert Ludlum, Ken Follet, Anne MCCaffrey, et al all have. It is compelling to read. It is so compelling that the reader loses themselves in the story and doesn't notice mistakes in spelling, punctuation, and grammar. That is talent. That can't be taught. And quite frankly, I would rather write like one of these authors, than some literary genius no one but the literati have ever heard of or will ever hear of.

Unfortunately if you're the type of person who notices spelling, punctuation, and grammar mistakes when you read, then you will not be able to recognize compelling prose even when it sits up and slaps you in the face.

And I feel sorry for you because when I read a book and get lost in story, it's like riding on Space Mountain. If I'm noticing the spelling and the grammar and the punctuation, then I feel like I've been dragged into The Hall of Presidents. If I get to choose between the two, then it's Space Mountain every time.

What tees me off about this discussion is that there is a lot of mudslinging about the book, but no in depth analysis of why it is bad.

I've read an analysis of Da Vinci Code written by an Ivy League literature professor. His analysis was so stupid, it wasn't funny. What's really scary is that he has a PhD in literature and he is teaching creative writing.

anonymous 2:10 a.m.

Here is a good in-depth analysis of the book:
http://therumpus.net/2012/05/the-trouble-with-prince-charming-or-he-who-trespassed-against-us/

I've read books that were perfectly lousy and still kept me reading. 50 SHADES wasn't one of them. Fortunately, the Amazon "look inside this book" feature saved me. What put me off so much I couldn't get into the story of a modern young woman in college with NO COMPUTER and no e-mail address who was also a virgin? This deathless simile about the hero's voice, which is “warm and husky like dark melted chocolate fudge caramel…or something.”

At that point I decided that it wasn’t worth reading even for free (from the library). Of course, your mileage may vary....

LOL. I love the comment that compares it to twinkies. Too true. Fifty Shades is a bandwagon everyone can't wait to jump on. Enjoy the ride. It's short.

I seem to be in the minority here, but I'm going to say this anyhow, and I won't even post it anonymously.

As a reader and a writer, it makes me sad that there is a fanfic on the bestseller's list. As a reader, because I want to read fresh stories, not pay for something I already own. As a writer because I don't want someone borrowing my characters, and it's not something I ever would do. I DO think there is a place for fanfic. I think it's supposed to be just for fun not a cash cow. I think there is more artistic integrity in creating your own world, and your own characters.

Kristin,

Thanks for the link. I am the anonymous at 2:10 AM (sorry I was too lazy to log into blogger)

That analysis is of the story, not the prose. And I absolutely agree with that analysis. It is not a story that I want to read, and it is troubling that it is popular. But I can also see that her prose is compelling to read.

Whether one likes a story or not, doesn't indicate the quality of the prose. I don't like Stephen King's stories, that doesn't make him a bad writer or his stories poorly written.

So when we say that something is poorly written, what are we talking about? Is it the prose, the plot, the characterization, or what? In terms of plot and characterization and all the other elements of fiction, yes it is poorly written. In terms of the prose styling, the actual stringing together of words to tell the story, it is compelling to read.

And yes, I do feel empathy for you, your inbox will soon be filled with Fifty Shades of Grey clones. That's human nature. We see someone becoming hugely successful for something and then everyone rushes in trying to mimic that person's success instead of finding it on their own.

We don't need no, education, we don't need no, grammar skills..

..Hey, editors! Leave those kids alone!

It's like a DADAist approach to writing: Why should you have to be intelligent to write a story? Why should you have to study the english language to write a story? After all, Daniel, you said so yourself: The ability to write so well you don’t *need grammar* comes from talent and can’t be taught. Much like how affluent artists are simply born with a pencil in their hand and can render a beautifully drawn human body without even having to look at one. There's no learning involved in writing, it's just a talent.

I don't fear agent Nelson's inbox being flooded with 50 Shade Clones as much as I fear the fact that due to a rise in people making a conscious choice to be intellectually lazy, there will be hundreds of people like Daniel thinking you don't need to study or work hard to become a writer, all you need is ~imagination~. Grammar, structure, plot and progression are just the product of people who, what was it? Ah yes, "the literati have ever heard of or will ever hear of." Stephen King, Nora Roberts and James Patterson were just born knowing how to write.

Now, since you've made it quite clear reading isn't exactly your thing, I imagine you didn't actually read the article Nelson posted, what with all those multi-syllabic words in there and all. To address your point of James' prose. This:

“My subconscious is frantically fanning herself, and my inner goddess is swaying and writing to some primal carnal rhythm. She’s so ready.”

“white Pinot Grigio.”

"Ana says or thinks, “Jeez,” more times than I can count. There are so many repetitive tics, this trilogy would be ideal for a drinking game where the aim is to destroy someone’s liver. Drink every time Ana thinks, “Jeez.” Drink every time Ana bites her lower lip, which, by the way, makes Christian want to ravish her. Drink every time the palm of Christian’s hand twitches because he wants to spank Ana. Drink every time Ana thinks of Christian as enigmatic or mercurial. Drink every time Ana reflects on his extraordinary good looks. Drink every time Ana gets possessive of Christian because every single human woman in the world eyes him lustily and becomes instantly tongue-tied. Drink every time the narrative continuity goes wildly off track. The game goes on and on."

As well as this,

“I want you to become well acquainted, on first name terms if you will, with my favorite and most cherished part of my body. I’m very attached to this.”

“My inner goddess is doing the merengue with some salsa moves.” “My inner goddess sits in the lotus position looking serene except for the sly, self-congratulatory smile on her face.” “My inner goddess jumps up and down with cheer-leading pom-poms shouting yes at me.” “My inner goddess looks like someone snatched her ice cream.”

Is at the level of a twelve year old writing fanfiction porn. That is not good enough. You may base writing success on sales numbers, but Paris Hilton and Kim Kardashian also can outsell many things far better than them, that doesn't make them good. The books you dismiss as elitist and forgotten because they haven't had a Lifetime TV movie made about them are still read to this day because things that are good are enduring, and to be good, things have to have quality. If you cannot understand why The Great Gatsby is better than The Da Vinci Code, or what quality in writing is, for the love of god, see if your community college offers a basic class in English Comprehension.

*Excuse me, Daniel - Diana

Thank you for saying this. 50 Shades is insulting. There's better written and less offensive erotica out there that ISN'T find-and-replace-name fanfic. And bottom-of-the-barrel fanfic, at that. (I say this as someone who wrote Harry Potter fic for years.)

I mean, awkward prose aside, there are TYPOS and MISSPELLINGS (not just British to American English misspellings). Nothing should go for seven figures and make this much buzz with DOZENS AND DOZENS AND DOZENS OF SPELLING ERRORS at the very, very least.

If none of this silly grammar stuff matters, why should we have to have classes in our own language during school? Because it DOES MATTER.

I feel like the publishing industry owes millions of authors, already published, seven more figures. Because if 50 Shades is worth that much...

@anonymous 3:55 PM

Wow, can you be any more arrogant, condescending, rude, and insulting?

It is posts like yours that stifle constructive discussion of books such as these.

Clearly the one in need of a class in reading comprehension at the local community college is yourself as you didn't understand a word that she said (You didn't even get her name or gender right when you went on your tirade.)

And while you are there see if they teach a class in manners as your are sorely lacking.

Kristin, thanks for posting the link. That really was a pretty comprehensive analysis, and I agree with the writer--it's the wrong message, wrong kind of fairy tale.

Glad you shared it.

I was bottle-fed on the three-act structure, so my heart breaks every time I see another book, film or television show clearly missing those Campbellion (and many other) beats.

Still, I make it a point to never berate other writers. This industry is hard. If another writer figured out how to tune into our cultural zeitgeist, and make a mint in the process, God bless.

We live in an age where books are the underdog. In my mind, every time a book succeeds, we all (writers, agents and publishers) win. It’s good for all of us. No need to worry. :)

And your blog is fabulous.

If it is not well written, I can completely understand why you wouldn't be the agent to go for it. At the very least, any agent who does should at least have had it edited so that it would be well written by the time it hit shelves. Thanks for sharing.

I never knew that writers and wanna be writers were so bitter and elitist . If all of you are so talented, why are you writing comments instead of bestsellers?

I bought it to see what all the hype was about. I had to stop reading somewhere in chapter two because the plot was so implausible, the writing was on an eighth-grade level (that's being generous), and there are so many other books actually worth my time.

Anonymous, I'm not bitter and elitist (unless by your definition, it means I have standards). As applied to this book, better terms would be confused, perhaps mystified. I just don't get *why* this book is a bestseller unless it's some sort of mass hysteria leftover from Twilight. I bear the author no ill will. Good luck to her. I wish all of us could be hit by the same lightning.

Here's my take. Frankly, I'm not really surprised this book has done well, because the subject matter sells. I neither read nor write this kind of fiction, so I can't rely upon the subject matter *alone* selling my work to anyone (naturally, I hope the subjects I write about will be of interest to people). I simply want to write stories I care about, and write them as well as I can. I want to be proud of my work, and be able to hold my head up and say "this is a good example of my writing skills." Personal integrity is very important to me.

From the interviews I've read/heard (and correct me if I'm mistaken), Ms. James doesn't consider herself a good writer, and doesn't think her book is really all that good. If I had that attitude about something I'd written, I would never have allowed it to be published.

Just my 2c.

This elitist attitude is WHY publishing is in such trouble. THIS book got people to read. THIS book made money. And THIS book made the so-called gatekeepers stop and wonder.

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It's very sad and disheartening that works like 'Shades of Grey' get published with very little effort, while many TALENTED writers' works are left to stew in the slush pile.
Many writers are now going the 'Self-Publishing' route, taking the traditional Agent and Publisher out of the equation. If publishers and agents don't pull their collective heads out of their ...holes in the sand, they may soon find themselves as archaic as typewriter repairmen. Wise up, people. Don't let 'Trendy' overcome 'Talent.'

An interesting discussion, slowly morphing into anonymouses taking potshots at one another.

As an out-and-proud elitist, I am not going to read it. But she got one thing right. 50 Shades of Grey is a pretty good title. (Unless it's some Twilight fanfic in-joke that went completely over my head.)

This book deserved to be published because millions of people are reading it and enjoying it. That's the only criteria.

Any agent or editor who represents books in the romance genre and passed on this book doesn't know her field. Period. Stop making excuses. And whining. A key rule of business is to know your target audience. If you want to make your job easier, stop representing dull books only a few thousand people want to read.

And to all those writers struggling to "perfect their craft," wake up and learn what really makes a marketable book.

I'm with anon@8:00 AM.

But then is the capacity to objective there? In other words, the norm has been for agents and editors to choose books for publication based on their *subjective* taste...for the most part. And if that subjective taste is not geared toward marketable books that people want to buy and read, are agents and editors capable of looking at their businesses objectively?

Frankly, I'm not sure they are. Fifty Shades of Grey would have been turned down by most agents just like The Help was turned down by most agents. Two very different books with two very different subjects. And yet both became bestsellers.

Something is broken. Plain and simple.

I'm the anon above. I wanted to add one more thing so no one thinks I'm attacking agents.

Publishing and authors are going to need agents more than ever as things change. But a little less gatekeeping and subjectivity and a lot more objective representation is what they need.

I enjoy erotic romance novels. I made a valiant attempt to read "Fifty Shades ..." and couldn't get past the first four chapters. There was something disturbingly familiar about the dynamic between Ana and Christian (Read: Bella and Edward)that I found off-putting. It was just *so* 1970s Harlequin Romance. But, this simply suggests that I don't find this type of male-female relationship compelling enough to read about, and that perhaps I prefer a more modern tale of courtship between a man and woman who treat each other as peers.

Quality of writing aside, the most important question to ask is why such a large number of female readers *are* riveted by the naive, quivering 21-year-old virgin and the older man equipped with looks, power and extreme wealth when clearly a lot of us writers have been told that this plot device is outdated. I suggest that "Fifty Shades ..." isn't wildly popular just because it introduces a little bit of vanilla kink into the plot; it's popular because women relate to/want to be Bella/Ana.

FIFTY SHADES OF GREY was picked up after it had sold over a quarter of a million copies. That alone justified the advance.

It was picked up by its original publisher, The Writer's[sic] Coffee Shop after it had amassed an audience of somewhere in the neighborhood of two million readers on fanfiction.net.

It was not picked up because of the quality of its writing, and any writer who thinks that writing that way will get them a million dollars is frankly, nuts. It wasn't even picked up because Vintage thought it would sell. It was picked up because it was already selling.

That's a huge difference.

It was a one-in-a-million shot that is likely never going to be repeated. A book with characters so archytepal and flat that they could be exploited by a fanwriter in a way that created an AU far enough to avoid a copyright suit. A fandom around that book so willing to pour its energy into works which had little to do with its source. A history of works within that fan community that had already laid the groundwork for desire for more of Edward Cullen as a human dominant rather than a domineering vampire. The surge in the epublishing industry and in tiny e-publishing mircropresses that allowed some fans to create their own press to publish name-changed fanfiction that most publishing professionals would never lay their hands on.

That's what led to the original sales. And that's what led to the deal.

It was a perfect storm. And a writer who understands the industry and understands the provenance of FIFTY SHADES OF GREY will understand that...how large that number is, however, I couldn't tell you.

I don't think any agent or publisher who would have passed this book up if it had been presented without that original fanbase is in any way misguided. It would not have done as well had it not come from where it did, at the time that it did, and with the huge groundswell of support moving beneath it.

"And to all those writers struggling to "perfect their craft," wake up and learn what really makes a marketable book."

*Wow*

Guys. Game over. You just. You can't get better than this?

I can only hope that if I ever pitch something, that's the kind of writer I'm competing against. Anonymous, could you send us your email, maybe post a date around when you'd like to talk to an agent or an editor? Just. You know. For reference?

Hey, all other writers in this thread, all of you who are passionate and dedicated and working hard? Could you listen to that anonymous? Yeah, all that hard work stuff. Totally unimportant. Yep. Agents and editors are just looking for stuff that's marketable. I hear there's a Battleship movie coming out, maybe you can do something in that vein? Like, a Candyland saga? Avengers sold out, maybe you can write a young adult novel about the adventures of Sargeant United States and his buddy Steel Guy. I think this is the way to go. Yep. Totally.

I like your style. If I were an agent, I would probably feel the same way.

I actually kind of do feel the same way about my own writing. I have tons of ideas, but I don't write every single one... I only write the ones that I love love love.

I think the way you do it is best. I know I wouldn't want someone representing my work if they didn't love it. It makes it all about the money and that should never be what books are about.

Every time I read one of your posts, Kristin, I like you more. And obviously, your method works.

I think you're right, Kristin. Publishing is a long slog and if you don't love the project, you might be tempted to give up on it. I wish all agents were like you!

I think it's commendable that you didn't take on the client. A writer should have an agent who truly loves and truly believes in his or her work, not someone who was just in it for the money.

By choosing not to represent the writer, you allowed them to find someone who did feel that way about the story.

This make complete sense to me. I'm sure your current clients also appreciate you being choosy with how you add to your work load since it will affect your time for them.

I really respect that. Publishing is hard enough when everything goes right, and if you take on a client that you're not crazy about, it becomes that much harder. I wish all agents operated the way you do.

You say you know a number of agents who do treat books like widgets. I know you can't tell us who they are but I sure wish you could. ;)

This makes a lot of sense. When an agent rejected my full, she was very kind in explaining that the ms was great. That she found nothing wrong with it, and that she was rejecting it for personal preference only. It broke my heart and I wanted to have my work published so badly, that I wished she'd just take it on anyway. But since then I've realized that I want an agent who gets my stories, loves my writing, and yearns to see my books on the store shelves just as much as I do.

thank you for sharing

http://storystruelove.blogspot.com/

nice work

It sounds to me like you take on authors – not books – as your clients. :)

That's a quality I love to see in agents!

Although it means that I'm less likely to get accepted by an agent, I'm glad that there are agents out there who value a story they're passionate about over money and sell-potential.

Thank you Kristin. I love your blog and the time you spend educating us about the industry.

I know you have alluded to this approach before and you clearly look out for your clients. When facing rejections it helps to keep this in mind.

I've often wondered about this time thing. Specifically, is it okay to requery an agent for the same project after a certain amount of time? Maybe the first query hit their slush pile at a busy time. Do agents have slow periods and busy periods, or is it always busy?

My gut feeling says no. It's never okay to requery for the same project. But I still wonder...

Thank you for this blog. I am helping my husband research agents, and so far this has been the most helpful place. You have answered all of my questions and then some!

Kristin,

I do the same thing. I make some authors very mad because I won't accept their "best novel ever." But we all have our standards and we need to live by them. I cannot tell you the number of Kindle edition books I read that I ask, "is this self-published?" and then find out it was not, giving me time to reflect on the value of a literary agent who takes time to make sure the best edited product reaches the publisher. We need to set our standards and live by them in our practice.

"I cannot tell you the number of Kindle edition books I read that I ask, "is this self-published?" and then find out it was not, giving me time to reflect on the value of a literary agent who takes time to make sure the best edited product reaches the publisher."

You need to step up your game, dude. Not all self-pubbed Kindle books are unedited. Many of them are being released by published authors with many publishing credits. And, they are making money.

Another point: no publisher expects an edited book. They expect a neat, clean, tight mansucript with a good storyline. When the publisher buys the book they do the editing, and the copy editing. At least that's how it's always worked since I've been in publishing.

It's great to hear you take on the projects you really feel passionate about. This is definitely the way to ensure that the books we read will be of the best quality possible.

I am dying to do this but am still on my first draft. The price looks really good, too!

Good luck to everyone who submits. I'll catch you in the next round instead. :)

I've signed up for the webinar and I'm looking forward to Kristen's honest evaluation of the first two pages!

Sounds like a great seminar.

I was wondering, how many participants it is capped at? Thanks!

I tried to sign up, but PayPal won't take my card. I've checked to make sure the account is ok, but PP isn't explaining the problem. It just tells me to use another card, which I don't have. Is there any other way I can sign up?

I've signed up, but I can't seem to introduce the proper double-space (for pages) formatting into my email. Is it alright to send single-space and presume that Anita will (kindly) reformat for reading?

I registered yesterday, but I've just found out that I have to work that night :(

The registration email says I need to cancel if I can't attend and get a refund, but I read elsewhere that I can watch it later if I can't watch it live? Is that not true?

How long should we wait to receive our email or is there a day by which we should follow up that we haven't received an email to submit pages?

I'm a little nervous, but in desperate need of feed back. I'm signed-up, so let's get some feedback!

@ Becca, don't worry, I had the same problem. All webinars are recorded, so you'll be able to watch it a week later :)

@ Joseph, you'll have to wait for an email to receive registration link. After clicking on registration link, it'll ask you to submit the first 2 pages of manuscript.

Thank you, T^2.

I assume this is not interactive, right? So is there any advantage to watching it live...? I might choose to watch it later, when the family isn't hovering.

Perhaps a silly question...do we include our query letters, too, or just send the pages in "blind"?

I'm excited about this. This will be the first webinar I attend. :) I hope she's brutally honest in that she'll also tell us if our writing is "weak." It's so hard to find quality feedback these days.

Will the webinar be available for non-participants to view later? Ideally for free...but perhaps for a reduced fee?

I am looking forward to this. Thanks for hosting this Kristin.

On a side note, I was able to register by clicking on the emailed link, but I didn't see (nor haven't received yet) that special email in order to submit the first 2 pages. I'll keep checking my email :)

Awesome. I love first page reads. You're right though. they are not for the faint of heart. I've had my own heart broken once or twice. :-)

Anonymous 6:56--if you don't get that registration confirm email (and give it another day or two) with the special email included, you'll want to contact us at [email protected]

Anon 6:50
The webinar is recorded and people who have registered have full access to the recording for a full year after the presentation date.

For non-participants, we have not made the video available as of yet for a reduced cost but may in the future so stay tuned.

allian said...

I tried to sign up, but PayPal won't take my card. I've checked to make sure the account is ok, but PP isn't explaining the problem. It just tells me to use another card, which I don't have. Is there any other way I can sign up?

Agent Kristin: I'd try again or you might have to call Paypal and ask what the issue is.

Anonymous JenB said...

I've signed up, but I can't seem to introduce the proper double-space (for pages) formatting into my email. Is it alright to send single-space and presume that Anita will (kindly) reformat for reading?

Agent Kristin: Don't worry. We'll be dropping the 2 pages into Word docs if not there already. We can fix formatting.

Becca Christiansen said...
The registration email says I need to cancel if I can't attend and get a refund, but I read elsewhere that I can watch it later if I can't watch it live? Is that not true?

Agent Kristin: The webinar is recorded and you'll have full access up to watch the video for a full year after the presentation.

awriter said...

I assume this is not interactive, right?

Agent Kristin: Yes and no. It will be interactive as attendees will be able to ask questions but not to comment on each others works.

Buffra said...

Perhaps a silly question...do we include our query letters, too, or just send the pages in "blind"?


Agent Kristin: No need for query letter. Just the first two pages of the actual manuscript. Include the title and genre so we have context.

Kristin, just like a real-life outing, the journey is often times more interesting than the final destination. As such, I only draw up the 'road map' after my 3rd or 4th revision, concentrating on interesting side trips and other characters I meet along the way (as long as they are important to the plot).
Love the blog, keep it coming. Quite a few of us out there gather in as much info as you have to offer.
Thanks again,
J.W.

Great tip. To me it's all about the story, so I mull the story arc over a lot before beginning. I don't write the storyline out though. It's like starting out on a East to West cross-country road trip without a AAA triptych. But I know where I'm trying to get in the end. What happens on the journey is another thing. I get sidetracked by an intriguing little town off the interstate, or decide to bypass the Grand Canyon. After that, all bets are off.

I'm more favorable to Discovery Writer. I do this less now than a few years ago. It used to be I'd write wherever my characters took me and more than once ended up in a Doomed World where it was absolutely impossible to give a satisfactory end to the book. Since then I tend to mull over where it's going and have a general idea where I want to take it (though this too often changes).
The roadmap is a good way to make sure you don't get too far off track, though as Kristin said at least one revision should be given so you don't lose the creative vibe.

Both? Neither? More like an outliner who then trashes her outline every ten minutes and then writes the story as it should be written, causing another outline to be 'written.' There's always an outline in my head (I killed too many trees trying to write them out!), but it's constantly under revision as the story shifts.

So I guess that makes me panster with delusions of plotting.

I am an extreme panster (maybe I can get a Mountain Dew sport commercial for "extreme pansting?" ;)).

I grab some amazing characters, then we take off and run. I do get frustrated sometimes with the amount of re-writing involved in my style, but at the same time, so many wonderful things have happened in my stories that I never could have planned (ok, not so wonderful for my characters, but good to read ;)).

I think I will always be this way, as for me the joy is in the journey- I figure if I can't wait to see what happens next, hopefully the reader can't wait either.

That being said- a road map would be a VERY helpful thing during the re-write/editing process.

I'm an outliner and I do the road map at least 2x. Outlining is the first - I tweak it as I write the first draft. The second is what I call a story revision. I go through and do as you suggest; ask what each scene does for the story/characters and fill in blank spots and take out what isn't working.
Then I write draft 1.5. That's the draft I revise (times whatever it takes) and polish.
great advice.

I'm a pantser that writes everything by hand for the first draft. Once that's done, I set up a road-map before starting the rewrite, converting the story to a computer-read format.

The reason why I did this: it's the only way I can improve the story I'd written. Without the map, I'd just come up with more versions similar to the original, but not the same, so there wouldn't be an improvement.

Pantser, as far as I know. :) Still learning. But it is incredibly useful to make the roadmap once the book is 'done'. It helps, not just with subsequent drafts, but with writing the dreaded query letter and synopsis. Holy cow. I don't know how I would have written an intelligent summary without it.

Yup, I'm definitely a panster then. Thanks for helping me to clear that up :)

I've tried pantsing and tried outlining bur found that a nice middle ground works best for me. A nice skeleton to give me a little bit of direction but nothing tight and restraining because I know my characters may have a few detours in mind.

Pantser for sure. Then after first draft I tread more carefully, although sometimes even the best plans need alterations. I'm glad there's a name for it ^.^

Pantster, as in fly-by-the-seat-of. I get it--I was wondering what the 'ell a panster was.

I'm a pantser, but I'm going to try to have at least a vague outline for my next novel. It kills me to cut out all the great scenes my characters force me to write. Better if I don't write them in the first place.

I'm some weird hybrid, but I'm learning I lean towards pantster. I tried to force a recent wip to form from outline, and it's ruined the story for me. But I tend to see the plot coming as I get to know my characters. When I do, I write with more purpose.

I agree with Daisy - I'm some odd combination of the two. I usually just write down an outline of scenes or basic points, look for flaws and then proceed to write. My biggest problem comes when I try to outline every detail of the story. That does suck all of the creativity out of me!

If I'm writing for the pure fun of it, I'm a panster. If I'm writing with the intention to share my work with the wider world - whether published as a book or just uploaded to a random internet site - then I'll outline the narrative. Is that pretty standard or...?

I started as a pantser and it took years to finish a first draft. Then I expanded a novella into a novel in a crazy two weeks and developed an "outline" process that worked for me without realizing it.

It wasn't until a couple years ago when I realized that what I called an outline was a very rough first draft written often out of order in Excel that I then sorted, cleaned up, and expanded into my "first draft." What this, and teaching other writers, has taught me is that people are either drawn to or repelled by the word outline, but whether they organize things in their heads as they write or map it out into plot, character, emotion, etc. sections, writers find ways to gain an understanding of the shape of their novel. And yes, some do it before, some after, some during, but I see developing the ability to create this road map as an important step in the journey to a consistently productive writer.

Yes. Exactly! I've been saying that to my plotter friends who shake their heads at my denial of their creative organized genius.

But I'm not denying their genius, just saying it doesn't work for me. I've done a synopsis, outline, etc. thinking it was how "real writers" do it. But those stories, they haven't been written.

I have a novel right now, for a small press I've done shorts for, which I'm working on. I had to write a synopsis, answer questions from the editorial team, and by then? I was bored with the story. Lost my voice had to put the synopsis away and JUST WRITE. Now I'm 55k into it. It's going much better. I'll go through in the revision and make sure I did what's needed to be done according to the approved synopsis, but until then... What synopsis? LOL

Thanks again!!

I write until I get completely and utterly stuck, then I revise and outline, so I guess that means I'm a panster, though I'm delving into the world of outlining first now that I'm writing my first "official" outline. I can see where it will make writing the book easier, but I'm not sure I'll be able to do it if I haven't gotten some of the story down first. Often times, I don't know where the story is going until my characters tell me.

That's really good advice. I'm a big fan of Save the Cat.

I am a total outliner. I write traditional puzzle cozies, and can't imagine not having a full scene-by-scene outline with estimated word count and clue plantings. When I count the scenes and have an estimated word count of 60,000 I'll start my draft. Inevitably I'll revise it about half way through, usually to do what another commenter said about stabilizing chapters, usually a few "sequels" that need to be added in order for the reader to know how the main character is feeling. My estimates are fairly accurate. I'm writing book three in my series this way, and can do up to 2,500 words a day when I'm drafting. Then when the draft is done I start examining the internal scene structure to make sure it works, has some kind of conflict, and adds to the overall arc.

I learned the hard way that I can't let myself go too far without a road map. Though pansting is fun for the first couple chapters, it gets progressively more difficult for me to keep writing without having my world, characters, and plot line set up as a guide. I forget things, ramble, or find that all I'm doing is writing scenes, not a story. With the outline in place, I can start dropping hints early on, revealing backstory and whatnot naturally instead of all at once when I realize I need it.

At the same time, I don't think a writer should be afraid to deviate from the outline if they end up writing things that don't feel right. I've seen friends get some awful blocks from that.

Oh I was a panster with my first novel and I zipped right through it. I'm on my second and I've got outlines, maps, etc and it's taking me forever. I don't even want to mention the serious block I have with this story. A part of me wants the story to write itself so I'm throwing away the map for now. That may change as the story progresses.

Pants-ed it all the way through my first novel, but plotted my second (which I'm currently working on) and I think I'm in love with drawing the road map first!

A bit of both, so far. I start with an outline, and I have to know the ending, but I discover a great deal as I write the first draft, even without deviating much from the outline.

On the current story, I did a road map between the first and second drafts, and while writing the second draft, I'm trying filling out a detailed spreadsheet keeping track of the different characters so I can follow their arcs for the final polishing draft.

I'm a middle-of-the-roadster. With my first novel, I outlined extensively. Writing it turned out to be grueling and the end product was lifeless. Technically fine, but not interesting even for me. With my second novel I started writing with only a basic idea of where I wanted to go and what I wanted to say. Mostly I needed to prove I could actually write a novel with small kids in the house. Loved the process and the end product, but when I workshopped it I got feedback that not enough happens. I needed to raise the stakes. Now I'm starting a third novel with the same characters, setting etc of my second novel and I've put more thought into the skeleton of the plot in advance. Here's hoping the third time is the charm!

I'm sensing a wonderful workshop idea there!

As I read your post I was thinking, 'And? How do I do this?!!'

Great post and I hope you do a workshop of it :). Have a great time at RT!

YES! I a workshop or at the very least some kind of "how to" blog post please.

As an unpublished author I value any opportunity to see my plot with new eyes and to learn a new skill that will aid my writing :)

When I did a rewrite on a story I really loved but that needed major work I created an outline for it before beginning on a new document. I used a very basic plot arc and then expanded it accordingly. (I liked using the numbered list function on Microsoft Word where it's easy to add things before and after and have different levels.) It helped so much for staying focused on the plot. Also helpful was planning a preliminary one-sentence pitch that got to the heart of my conflict so I could make sure it all went back to that.

Workshop! Yes!

Workshop = win. In the meantime, I recommend STORY ENGINEERING, by Larry Brooks. If I ever see publication or sell a spec script, it will be thanks to that book teaching me to see and love the structure.

I think a lot of problems we'd find in a manuscript could be eliminated by making a detailed plan and thinking about the pace and story arcs before we actually start the writing. Conducting your idea at the end would be like double checking, so even better again! Definitely a good idea, thanks for sharing :)

I would take that workshop.

This is something I'm trying to learn to do, but I find myself stumbling. I think it's a fantastic idea though to see how an entire finished story stacks up in a brief overview.

I do that!! So excited to know I'm on the right track. Of course, I'm not sure that I'm doing it WELL...

Wonderful idea, and so many of us can utilize that same principle toward our novel's summary. Thank you!

I write from an outline to make sure I am covering all the important parts of the plot and foreshadowing appropriately. Of course things change a little as rewriting occurs. What I find is that I need more in what I call "bridging chapters" than I expect. A bridging chapter for me is one that has internal conflict and ties together the heavy action in the external conflict chapters. They set the stage, describing the world, and revealing the characters. These chapters are chock full of information but sometimes bog the story down too much. The outline helps me find ways to keep up the pace or even redistribute the information in my "bridging chapters"

I had a rejection that commented on pacing which spurred me to create a roadmap. I write the scene, the GMC of it, and lay it all out. It's easier to manipulate when everything is right there in front of you.

Here's another vote for the workshop. I think I made a roadmap when I wrote my synopsis, but I'm sure it was not as thorough as it could have been.

I actually already do this as a writer, and I've really enjoyed the results. It lets me so how the chapter needs to work in relationship to everything else. What is ultimately it's most important facet? What could be trimmed? It's also helped me when I occasionally re-arrange pieces to re-pace the work.

I agree with Bonnee--it seems like it'd be a good double-check at the end if you are (or are working with) a writer who creates an extensive outline at the beginning. (I sure do.) It'd be interesting and very useful to compare how one planned the story and how the story turned out, and let you more easily determine how scenes relate to each other, whether all the subplots have been carried through to conclusion, and so on. A workshop would be nice!

I do this as well, between the first and second draft. Since I'm a pantser, I often end up with scenes that are great but in the wrong place. So the first thing I do with a rough draft is skim over it and make a detailed outline of all the important things.

Then I can edit the outline for structural problems. I can see where things need to be added or moved or taken away. Gives me a road map for the whole second draft.

I like to do a plot board after the first draft. I use a giant posterboard for each act and have a grid for each scene. Then I use colored post-its to indicate plot points, turning points, romantic turning points, and other important elements. For example, with a mystery, you could a clue post-it to note where in the story the different clues fall.

Then I step back and look at it. If I see a big gap in a certain color, I know that something is missing. It also helps me ensure that each scene has at least two purposes.

It sounds like what I do with my books. After I've written the first draft and edited it a time or three for the major stuff I know in my head is there, I create a detailed outline for the book. Scene by scene and chapter by chapter I break it down, outlining characters, locations and events. Then I use that for the next revision because it just shows the skeleton without all the flesh. So helpful. The first time I did this, I ended up creating a new outline after I'd revised a couple more times to work off of since there were some major changes.

I recently did this on a big, white poster board. A bit primitive, yes, but it helps me to see the story all at once when I'm revising. I had a one-line summary for each chapter. If I need to move chapters around, it's much easier for me to identify a chapter by that one line rather than scrolling through the entire document on my computer, looking for a certain section. It also helps me when it comes time to revise my synopsis.

I would love to know how to do this. I find it very hard to outline before I began writing, but maybe if I knew the best way to get it started...

http://writeyourownworld.blogspot.com

I'm learning the joys (insert sarcasm) of outlining. While the process is enough to make me want to scream, I am seeing where my story is definitely going (and where it's coming from). I think it is ultimately going to be very helpful in the final draft. It already showed me one area of the book that was simply there because it was a neat scene idea, not because it adds anything to the story. Yeah, that scene goes in the "I hope a situation comes up where it's useful one day" pile. *sigh*

I desperately needed to read this!

I haven't been able to finish anything in years and just finished a new ms over the weekend. I'm having trouble contemplating how to even tackle it. Thanks for sharing an editing strategy!

-Lera

What's the difference between this kind of an outline, and a synopsis?
Is it just because the outline is segmented per chapter?

My first thought was "Luke, I am your father" seems an apparent contradiction, but 1) that's a movie, so the rules are a little different, and 2) even if Darth Vader says it outright, there is a big fight going on as the culmination of several plot arcs throughout the story. They're not just talking heads.

I love writing dialogue and this is something I've always had to watch out for, so thanks for this post. It's better to have them doing something by sitting, and for at least some of the other plot details to come out in other ways.

LOL, Kristin L, I felt a bit the same. What? No talking?

But I don't think that's what she meant. That scene in Star Wars is not a conversation, essentially. It's a big fight scene. Yes, the reveal is spoken and that then turns everything on its head, but it is presented in the midst of a full-on action scene and his response is also in action (when he lets go and falls). It's not the same as if Darth Vader sat Luke down and gave him a cup of tea and told him he was his Dad.

I think this warning is worth hearing mulitple times, especially if you (like me) like big, complicated back-stories. It can be so tempting to have page after page of exposition and kid yourself that it isn't a dump because people are talking. Gotta make sure that talking is pulling its weight in the novel as a whole.

Much food for thought on a Wednesday morning!

I think that's one of the problems when you've got some considerable world-building to do and an info dump is imminent. I try to chip info down into smaller pieces and spread it out among the chapters, but it takes a looot of whittling down and revising and taking out all the unnecessary bits to finally get it right.

Hmmm -

I'm in the middle of adding the finishing touches to Angels In Darned Socks & Patched Trousers which is centred in the slums of Sydney Australia amidst the depression and 2nd world war years. Now because much of the information was drawn from my dad speaking into a handheld cassette player some years back, he has the habit of using one-liners. My challenge now is to expand that conversation.

Hmmm...well I don't believe I have fallen into this trap but I'm going to have to go back and take a look. Thanks for posting on this (even if it was 'again') :)

Foundation?

Thanks for posting this. I'm knee deep in revisions of a fantasy right now, so it's actually very well timed to my eyes. I'll be on the look out to make sure my characters do more than just talk.

Kristen, could you please expand on this? Are you saying that any big reveal should happen in the course of action, and no talking? Or are you saying that all conversations should involve some sort of secondary action to keep them interesting?

I know you have more to say on this. ;) I would love to hear it.

Wow, this is majorly important for what I'm doing now. Any chance you could name some published works where this is a problem? Thanks!

I am assuming you are referring ot "back story" conversations...?
"as you know, Frank, when the ship blew up last week, we didn't find any other survivors."

Like a previous commenter, I'm a bit confused by this post. Some clarification maybe?

A lot of novels in some genres are heavily focused on dialog--that is where the tension and the changes takes place. (Like e.g. traditional mysteries where the detective talks to the suspects, or romance, where the H&H interact in large part through dialog.) So I'm guessing you're not saying dialog is bad? What distinction are you making with "conversation"?

Selene

I agree with Selene that some genres are heavily focused on dialogue, and I'm also a little confused by this. Some clarification would be really helpful. :)

Well maybe the writer got the I have to finish this fire. If it was that good to start a note to review and refocus the story to finish the way he started. Which was probably focused. I have started stories and not known where they were going and lost it. Some were salvageable and some not. A word of encouragement can help a writer to refocus. It might turn into the book you hoped it would be.

Thank you. I especially appreciated the final note about the time involved in doing what every writer wishes every agent could do. It makes the form letter responses seem that much more reasonable when also considering the sheer volume of submissions every agent receives.

I missed seeing you at the Missouri Writers Guild conference this year. I don't see the 2012 conference on your upcoming schedule (yet). Do you anticipate possibly attending again in 2012? I promise I'm not stalking you! I just live in the vicinity and have been hoping for a second chance at a pitch appointment with you.

I think this can stem from a writer getting the feeling that they've done the heavy lifting to get their story rolling, and now they're free to goof off a little because the reader must be hooked by that point (also, possibly an extension of that "first chapter syndrome"? Page 100-140 is probably all the farther you're going to get in a [limited-duration] novel workshop, so if a writer doesn't take feedback that got their beginning so good and apply that throughout, they'll likely have a comparatively undercooked middle arc).

Uh-oh, sagging middle syndrome.

It goes to show how hard it is to get the whole thing right. It's also where writers need crit partners who they can swap entire mss with so you can see your mistakes in another person's work - and they can see yours.

When you know what the mistake is (or how many there are), it's so much easier to fix.

Oh, dear. You speak of the malady I currently suffer. It's fatal! I have a contract for book one, and am following it up with the 2nd instalment of the trilogy and I know, I JUST KNOW, I'm hedging around adherence to plot building and allowing my characters have a bit of fun. I'm finding it diffult to tear myself from that path. I wonder if I'm avoiding the first 'kill?' It's the death of a well loved character. Oh well - I'll just pull out the guillotine and be done with it.

I've never liked plots. I like my characters to acknowledge a plot exists, but to avoid it as much as possible. That said, there must be some kind of motivation, some plot going on that's important to the characters, otherwise you've got a vaudeville show, not a novel. It's a subtle problem, though, and one I've never really thought about until just now. Thanks for the insight.

Do you suggest more character development before starting the book, so the author knows their motivations/reactions better? Or more plot outline, so that the characters can move and breathe inside a set form that is moving forward? I think I get cuaght up in planning and then am scared to launch into a first draft, but sometimes find myself in the middle wondering what is actually happening!!

The best advice I ever got on combating this was to go scene-by-scene asking WHY everything important (especially every decision by a character) was the way it was (e.g., why does this person do X if they want Y, why does this scene fail to advance the plot, etc.), and to rip or fix anything I didn't have a concrete answer for. If you're not afraid of rewriting, this can work very well.

I think it's a good thing you're identifying this problem at the submission level. I've had an increasingly high number of novels that were DNF's lately because the blurb was good, but the book fizzled out 100 pages in and I just wasn't motivated to pick it back up.

My TBR pile is way too high to spend time on a book that's going nowhere. For me, an exciting plot and likeable characters is very important. Unfortunately, there are a lot of books out there that lack both which makes me sad because all I hope for when I pick up a book is to get lost in the story.

Tracey

PS, my RWA magazine came and it featured some comments from our fabulous international visitors to the Melbourne conference, including some from you.

You were so fabulous, and you commented on the high quality of our tea.

I think I have the answer. You're too high up in Denver to get good tea.

Melbourne, on the other hand, is at sea level.

At sea level, water boils at 100 degrees c and makes an excellent cup of tea.

One mile up, water boils at only 95 degrees, so it's not hot enough to get the right reaction with the tea leaves.

I've thought way too much about this.

But I also love my tea.

Dear Kristin, I have a question based on the very savvy and excellent advice you gave in a recent Writers Digest. (Also, I love Jamie Ford's book)...

Do you have tips on how writers can choose between different agents; determine if or when to switch agencies; and broach issues/ concerns with an existing agent in a productive way?

14 agents wanted to rep me (proboably because I queried close to a hundred - it's all percentages). Of these, I narrowed it down to 5. Of the five, I had a terrible time choosing, they all sincerely seemed great and were repping at least one major author whom I really admired.

In the end I chose at first based on "who seemed the most literary minded"; then realized she was working way too slowly (very very slow to get back, etc) to make me comfortable given that I was about to give birth and wanted to resolve certain things before then. So then I chose a very 'can do' agent -- but her editorial vision is simply not as sophisticated. She has an excellent commercial sense, but is somewhat at a loss re: literary critiques.

So we got less money for the novel as we submited than we would have in its current form I think...but she's overall a great agent. I just don't know if we're the best match.

Any advice on figuring this stuff out would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

anon

Good point. I'm having major fun writing a zombie novel at the moment. It's only the first draft, so I'm just blitzing my way through this crazy world I've created. During the editing process is when I can make sure my story isn't lacking in plot and character flow.

My first draft was more of a "let's get a time line and get the characters from A to B" thing (ended up around a mere 45K words) Now that I'm in draft 2, and know I have so much room to work around, I'm just letting my characters fill the voids left and have fun! They really take a life of their own. I think that making multiple drafts and reading each one thoroughly from start to finish in hard copy is essential to making sure you don't lose the story.
Also, thanks for letting us know how long it takes an agent to draft an editorial letter. I like learning how agents do things and how much effort they put into their work.

Yowch, what a problem to have!

One thing I found that may lead to it: when a writer falls in love with elements or parts of the story, and insists on keeping them whether they work or not.

I discovered during a particularly brutal round of second drafting that it doesn't matter how hard you try to cobble those pieces together; you can ignore it or you can scrap it, but if it don't work, it don't work.

Dear writer friends: Truth and reality do not have to be logical. Fiction does.

I was going to say the same thing as Ebony, up above. Even pro writers with decades of experience say they have trouble getting the middle right. 40,000 words into a novel, it's easy to get lost. By then you've burned out the fire in your belly that started things rolling, you've gotten used to the characters and you probably know where they have to go, but you can't figure out how to get them there. And of course, you're no longer in love with the premise the way you were 150 pages ago.

A good trick I picked up somewhere (sorry, I don't remember where) is to focus on the antagonist when you get lost. Spend time thinking about what the antagonist is doing behind the scenes. What new scheme is the villain working on? What roadblocks and danger will he present to the hero, to force the hero deeper into the abyss (based on the assumption that the story has a hero and conflict... most do, right?)?

This is why I love screenwriting books like 'Save the Cat', because they can really help in the rewrite process by outlining where the bones of a story should go. My first drafts are super fun, and a wild monster romp, but I've learned that the first draft had better be followed up by a disciplined second draft in which everyone is required to go to bootcamp!

I would be very grateful if someone told me, in a rejection, "The beginning is great, but then you start wandering and I finally gave up at page 100." No more than that. It would be invaluable information for me. ^_^

As people have said above, saggy middle is a very common problem, particularly for discovery writers. No shame in it, just means it needs some more work to connect the beginning to the end.

Laurie

Total non sequitur: My god, it's like we have the same exact music collection. Glad I'm not the only one.

That is all. Carry on.

Recently I reviewed a self-published novel which had it the opposite way round. The first two thirds of the book had the character wandering around in a fairly unstructured way. Building character and setting the scene, I suppose. And then, suddenly the story began.
I would never have got far enough if I hadn't had to review the thing. Shame really, because itcouldhave been two decent books - a nonfiction travel guide and a novel. But it was definitely prematurely published.

Well, I recently was told that some of my writing was beautiful in itself, but it was all backstory. So the message was that it wasn't BAD, it was just unnecessary. I think you really have to pick and choose which scenes you absolutely need to advance the story. And maybe have the odd extra bit of decoration in there, but if it's moving THAT slowly then you've got too much decoration.

Just my amateurish thoughts :)

I'll second Trisha's thoughts. Often you can have a really nice, well-written scene, but if it does nothing to move the story forward, it may not be a scene the book actually needs.
I personally don't think *every* scene needs to incorporate the next big event of the plot, but if there's 100 pages with nothing significant happening, the author probably needs to bring out the hedge clippers. Or perhaps even the chainsaw, in some cases!
- Nicholas

I agree, Trisha and Cholisose.

Not only is pacing the hardest thing to explain when it's wrong, but I feel it's the hardest thing to fix at times, too.

Aprilynne Pike gave us pacing advice with her lesson on outlines: http://bit.ly/g7MQwu .

It sounds like they either need to "get there" quicker, so get to the end of the over all arc in 80K words instead of 100K. Or, they need to do more in the words they have - throw in more twists and kinks so you're moving faster in the word count they have.

It's awfully nice of you to read to the end. :)

If the writer is serious about their craft, then they will figure out how to fix the pacing if that is the problem. I know your time is precious and you can't possibly personalize every rejection but as a writer it'd be nice if we knew why sometimes. :)

Last year I attended Debra Dixon's 'Goal, Motivation and Conflict' seminar and the key in that is to have GMC present in every scene - and if it's not, does the scene really belong?

It may be beautiful writing, but is it moving the story forward?
(Wish I could follow my own advice sometimes!)

Often these days it seems that a book must be cut down to the bare minimum with no chaff and a breakneck pacing. I like such books at times, but I think the publishers are failing to recognize that there are still buyers out here who enjoy a relaxing pace, too. Not all of us would have cut out Tolkien's huge prologue and vast amount of description! Why can't the market supply what all of us want? If a book is great other than some slow pacing, perhaps it doesn't need much fixing?

My theory? If it's good enough to keep me reading even when nothing much is happening in the story, then it's a good story. Then again, I've read all but the most recent Jane Auel books, so my tastes may be a bit skewed.

You can say "examine every single scene and cut or rework it if it doesn't move the story." I'd say that's both very simple and (potentially) very transformative.

@ Ted Cross: there's a difference between a "relaxing" pace and an unsteady or halting pace, where the story stops completely in favor of description. You don't have to sacrifice story movement to work in great description.

Slow-paced books sometimes sell well; Guy Gavriel Kay's work, for instance. I think it depends on the book and the writer. If it's done well, slow pace seems to work in fantasy - or some fantasy anyway - but it wouldn't work in a thriller. 100 pages is a dreadful long time for nothing to happen!

I used to tell writers to make sure they blended their characterization and conflict together. That way it's not like getting a spoonful of fruit and then a spoonful of yogurt. Instead if they blend them together, each scene can accomplish two things rather than one.

In other words, some authors get trapped in "this is my scene that moves the plot" and "this is my scene that builds character," but with a little blending, you can have multilayered, multifunctional scenes that move the plot, build character, foreshadow what's to come, and a lot of other things too.

Without having seen the work, it's hard to say what is the right advice for this particular author. But in general, I guess what to tell the writer would be "Get all these scenes to multitask and you can reduce your wordcount by about 15,000 words without losing any content."

I think you should tell them exactly what you've said here, but with a bit more detail.

In other words, there's a problem with the pacing between pages x and y. I'm not sure of the exact cause, but it could be due to a, b, c, or a combination of those.

Thus leaving it to the writer to figure out what they need to do to fix it.

Donald Maass and The Fire in Fiction fixed my pacing issues. The way he talked about microtension and tension clicked with me and it was like the skies parted. Don't know if that will help everyone, or this particular author, but it did for me.

Could you possibly supply the author (and us, if you're up for it?) with a reading list? As in, here are the masters of dramatic pacing; read these stories/books/movies, then go and do likewise? Perhaps leaving the manuscript on the shelf for a few months, the dusting it off and reworking it after such a study? If there's an innate talent there--after all, you're still reading it so it's no drek--then they can probably learn quite a lot that way.

I was just thinking this morning of Tad Williams' "Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn" trilogy, which makes Tolkien look downright hasty. :) Beautiful writing is hard to come by these days.

One of my favorite fictional characters has this advice on writing beginnings:

"Begin at the beginning as you understood it, proceed through the middle, continue to the end, and then stop," said Master Li, and he sauntered out to get drunk, leaving me to my current misery. (Barry Hughart, "The Story of the Stone")

Pond & Cross,

We learn about pacing from reading the masters. Our own reading should inform our concept of pacing. Agents don't necessarily read better than we do. They just advertise that they read a lot.

The thing that Kristin said that most people are missing, "But I'm still reading." This is huge, and often a reason why agents who pass on projects will go on to see that book sell elsewhere.

My advice, and this follows the post of Cross: if the writer can't find an agent, go read JAKONRATH's blog and then self-publish on Amazon. Kristin's preference with pacing is a mix of preference and market/publishing house experience. But WE READERS are the new gatekeepers. Let us decide if we want to read your story. Chances are, if it's good while bucking the trend of current pacing, then it will sell anyways.

Kristing said it herself, she's still reading it.

And people are still reading Austin, Auel, the first Horatio Hornblower book...

I had that problem with my books before I started outlining. I used to just write from beginning to end, and now when I read the books...nothing happens. So I'd give specific advice. "The dialogue is great/shows characters w/o telling, but it has to DO something," or something like this. Or maybe it's lacking dialogue and that could help: "More dialogue relating to plot to remind us where the story is going."

I know if you had my MS, I'd appreciate honest, specific criticism so I'd know how to fix things.

It's very generous of you to keep reading.

And someone asked for an example. Not everyone's genre, but LOIS DUNCAN is an absolute master of pacing (YA horror/suspense). You will never for one second forget where one of her stories is going.

I used some of Janice Hardy's great blog advice when editing my novel recently (yay NLA authors!).

She suggested identifying the conflict and stakes in each chapter. I wrote brief notes about those two items at the top of every one of my chapters. It's amazing how helpful it is to skim those notes and see where things are moving forward, or where you essentially have the same conflict drawn out with nothing new happening. The opportunities for tightening the plot suddenly jumped out at me.

Maybe that's a helpful technique you could recommend.

I like Roz Morris's idea of a beat sheet (described here on her website. She even does an example beat sheet of Harry Potter. I actually have not literally made one, but I mentally think something like that through.

If I were the writer in question, I'd be happy to get this critique from you. Sure, it would involve a lot of work - research, probably a lot of rewriting from scratch, etc - but clearly they're really close, since you're still reading and you're anxious to give them a few pointers. Saying what you just wrote here with a little more specificity would be a huge help to anyone, I think.

While guidance is awesome (especially because the author might not agree with your opinion), if you see the potential and it needs work, throw the ball back int he author's court. Say, "I think this is an interesting concept and good writing but your pacing needs improvement [in this area if you can offer a general point]. If you would like to rewrite and resubmit, I would give it a second pass.

I don't offer to rewrite unless the agent makes the overture. I know how strapped for time they are. But as a serious writer, I will work hard to improve my manuscript even with something as vague as "the pacing is too slow here."

As long as the story is moving within me, it doesn't have to be moving quickly. In my opinion, a good story is one where the characters are memorable and the story is meaningful--whether it is fast-paced or slow. :)

For me, personally, it really helps when the reader indicates exactly what scenes aren't working for them. At what point do your minds start to wander or think, "Where's this plot going?"

I agree slow-paced stories can work, especially in literary fiction, but if this is a commercial genre, the writer should take the readers into consideration.

Pacing is so important to a story but hard to do because it seems to be a feeling a lot of the time.

I learned that slow pacing is solved by making the words work harder. At least, that's how I solve my slow pacing issues.

Every scene in every chapter has to do two of the following things at the same time: develop the plot, develop the character(s), develop the setting, impart needed backstory/foreshadowing. If I can get those same words to do three of the four tasks, even better. Doing all four (five?) at once in the same scene? That's the holy grail.

The more the words work, the less of them I need. That means 1) fewer words to read out-story 2) perceived time in-story also passes faster because the reader is more engaged. (It's the old "time flies" thing. It not just when you're having fun, it also happens when you're busy.)

This is easy to say as an editor/critiquer, but really hard to do as a writer. The easiest way I found to edit myself (and give advice in workshops) is to identify the slow bits and remove 10% of the words in that section, but keep the information intact. I have done multiple cutting runs or just upped my percentage on myself when the first pass wasn't enough. I find removing about 20% of the words in a slow section forces the double duty writing out of necessity. The first 10% just deals with lazy word choices and loose writing. The second 10% gets the information condensed. Really slow sections,can loose about 25% of the words and still make sense.

It only works for fantasies, but when I really love a world, I am happy to linger there lovingly as long as it makes some progress. That progress can be very slow, as long as it is there. For some worlds, I feel terrible when the book finally ends, and I would have been happy to keep reading on and on.

I think this blog post is a good start. As others have said, tell the writer to really examine each scene and determine what it is doing for the story vs. what it should be doing. If it's just there to "build character" or something like that, the writer needs to figure out how to achieve the same effect while advancing the plot. Or it could just be a case where the author is too wordy, and tightening up each scene to its core will make things seem to move faster.

(V's comment above is amazing, btw!)

Ha, this is the exact same comment my writing group gave me just last week. . .

I like V's comment about "making the words work harder."

There are two techniques that no-one has yet mentioned that I find critical to judge pacing:

1) Put it away for a while. A few weeks away from the manuscript almost always allows you to view it with fresh eyes. Pacing is one issue that will really jump out at you after a break.

2) Read it out loud - 1st to yourself - make fixes; then read it to an audience. If your audience isn't excited when you read the exciting bits you have problems.

If an agent sent a manuscript back to me with the comments K makes above, these two steps would be the first things I did to focus on the problems.

Sometimes we get caught up in the world we build (fantasy or not, the world of our novel is at best a reflection of the real world). We are, after all, the first audience of our writing. We fall in love with it as much as the people who populate it and their travails and journeys.

On that 2nd edit through our work, I think it is imperative to ask the question: is this important? We can ask the same of all our tertiary characters, listless dialogue, entire chapters, and of course the blocks of prose that do not move the plot or move the heart.

It is this part of the editing process that becomes difficult. How do we make such huge cuts to our baby? How can we be so cruel to ourselves as to slash away all those passages full of beautiful words, gorgeous images and thoughtful reminisces?

The thing we must keep in mind is that if we want our audience to be wider than merely ourselves, we must create that which can be digested by many. Our creation can contain pithy moments as well as provocative ones. It can be descriptive, but needs to move.

In fact, it is my theory that most all great or popular works of fiction contain some sort of movement: psychological, geographical, or situational.

Maybe recommend a good book. That way if the author is serious they will make the effort to learn and fix. Then if they submit again you will know they are hardworking and dedicated to improving. That's just me, but I'm not an agent with piles of queries and manuscripts to read, lol.

I'm with the first Nicole -- it sounds like the issue in this case is conflict/stakes, not individual scenes (although the advice others have offered about tightening could be helpful too). But even if you just tell the author what you told us, s/he should be able to look at the ms through that lens and possibly identify a fix you hadn't even thought of.

I think the most helpful large-scale feedback for writers is simply when a reader points out where they lost interest or where they were confused. That simple criticism always helps me to see my manuscript with new eyes and ideas for improvement always follow.

I do think a slow pace can work beautifully for some authors -- I agree about Guy Gavriel Kay, and I'd add CJ Cherryh and also, say, McKinley's Pegasus.

But if pacing is indeed a problem for a particular book, the instruction to fix it could simply be: Cut 20,000 words(or whatever). Then leave it up to the author to decide how to tighten it up. Poof! Pacing improves.

Or at least, that's how my agent gets me to fix pacing issues, and it works for me.

I am an editor -- I became really excited about this post because pacing is the #1 thing that I work on and look for in submissions (and it's also the thing I am best at editing). For authors that I have decided to take on -- and who I feel are skilled enough to deal with the pacing issues -- I do two things. First, I point out why something isn't working, and secondly, I give concrete suggestions for how to get it to work (which they may or may not decide to use, but which get the ball rolling).

This sounds like a rewriting job where things would have to be combined; characters that are unnecessary may have to go, as well as scenes and details. It's developmental/substantive editing, and some writers aren't confident enough for this. If I am not taking on the author and just want to send a positive rejection letter, then I will just vaguely suggest that the writer may want to consider combining some scenes that could be doing more things at once.

Alternatively, this may not be a "too many scenes issue." Sometimes just cutting some description, exposition, and dialogue can do the trick; if each scene is shortened enough, then the time between each subsequent scene is shortened as well, picking up the pace. But as a rule, all scenes should be doing many things at once: developing character, plot, setting, etc.

I recently started reading a book for critique - the first 50 pages was really interesting (needed work but interesting), the next 50 the characters went to a concert and then grocery shopping. I couldn't get past it. It was pointless and I couldn't get the author to take my critiques seriously so I stopped reading. I was maybe 1/4 of the way through but the story was already falling apart. Sounds like you still have a good story and perhaps you will find a way when you finish to give good advice to the writer.

I love posts like this that tell us the positive and negative. The story and writing are good, but the pacing is off. I find this helpful!

Seems like it would be easy to just say to the author, "I like this but you have a pacing issue. The story takes too long to unfold (or slows down during the middle/end, or whatever)." If someone told me that, I'd know exactly what to look for and how to start fixing it. Pacing is a hard issue to define, but once you know pacing is the issue, it's not too hard to address it--successfully, I hope. :)

Thanks @ idempotent
Just bought Roz Morris's book on kindle and can't wait to read it.

Taking a second bit of the cherry here:

Whether you call them 'beats' or 'the gap' (Thanks Robert McKee) or turning points, a story needs to move forward - I keep a visual of a staircase in mind - with discoveries and obstacles along the way, whether they be physical or philosophical. Things still need to happen.

To me, that's when the pace drops off. Nobody is discovering anything new in the world, or within themselves, and it goes around in circles.

What Silvia and Liesl said. Where were you when it first occurred to you that "This is slow"?

I liked Plot and Structure by James Scott Bell...

Good on ya for keeping reading.

And thanks to all the commenters - all wonderful ideas.

Point them toward 'Save the Cat' the best guide I've found to help a writer address underlying structural issues like pacing. There's other advice out there, but this was what worked for me.

If the overall story is okay, the pacing can be fixed. Perhaps suggest a few scenes that you felt that way about and it could help the author see how to fix the story. That kind of advice would help me.

While I'm sure all the recommendations of this book or that might be fine among peers, on Twitter as a review, or even as a blog post with an explanation of why you recommend it, if an agent included a recommendation to buy a book as part of his/her rejection, it would damage my perception of that agent's integrity.

The book suggestions might be good. Also Lani Diane Rich has structure class occasionally (online, with live chats) that could be helpful as well. (www.storywonk.com)

If there really is a diamond under there, it would be nice for the author to be given ideas for how to uncover and polish it.

Check out some Jacqueline Carey if you have pacing concerns. If the story is sound and the writing is good, the pacing isn't a concern.

I wonder if the problem isn't commercial dynamics? So much pressure for these shorter books (200 pages). I wonder if Kristin isn't feeling this isn't bad but commercially????? Needs some pep or needs some cuting. I agree with Ebony about GMC. Ask at each chapter beginning, middle and finish if this meets GOAL, MOTIVATION and CONFLICT. Does it move my story along? Can the book live without it? idempotous post on Roz Morris site for specific "cookie cutter" system to move a book along is probably good but very cookie cutter. Again, maybe because of commercial needs? I wonder if when Kristin gets a book like this one she could choose a few of her writers to read it for comment? Obviously Kristin is very good, that's why we are here. But maybe a second opinion might make room for some of those good books but not number one sellers! I know I would be happy if she asked permission to have others read my book sitting on the chopping block!

Invaluable insight, Kristin, as you always provide time and again. I find that your lists, like this one, help tremendously.

Dito to what Michael said.

I do wonder, though: how can you tell after two paragraphs or pages, that the story starts in the wrong place? I would have pegged that as something you realize as the story progresses.

Honestly, awkward physical descriptions are starting to be a personal pet peeve of mine, especially when they're from the first person p.o.v. I've been workshopping a bunch of stories for class lately, and I can't tell you how many people feel the need to interrupt any action with physical description... or, alternately, they think we need to know it in paragraph one. It seems like whether your character has short hair or long could've waited until at least page 2.

Rose

I wish you would do that for a week or so here -- let us submit two pages to you and have you tell us why you would stop. I have gotten all these rejections that just say 'well written' and 'close' but nothing that gives me any helpful feedback.

I love retweeting your posts. You give excellent, succinct advice.

Yes, thank you for the list. With all that pressure on those first few pages, it's so easy to snap and start squashing them full of flowing locks of golden hair and exciting thesaurus easter eggs.

Great list! Thanks for the advice!

Saw a few too many "I brushed my chin-length auburn hair out of my blue eyes." Didja?

Doing a few rounds of "opening" critique doesn't entail nearly as many examples as an agent has to go through in a day, but I'm still amazed at how many of those include "descriptive" lines like that.

At least you weren't inundated with dream sequences (or is 2 pages short enough that the dreamer wouldn't have woken yet?"

Thanks very much for this. Physical descriptions of characters? I started skipping them when I was a kid, and haven't read one since.

This sounds very harsh but a great opportunity. This is why critique groups are so important not only do they help us make a better story and better writers but they help us toughen up a little as well. Thanks for the information.

Great post. Thank you!

Useful list! I wonder, though, if there is a place one can find examples of such things. For example, what is "awkward"? -- it would help immeasurably to see examples where all the containing errors are listed. It could help to identify such in my own writing.

I printed the list. Dangit. As I brushed my chin length auburn hair (not) out of my sparkly eyes and sipped lukewarm decaffeinated orange tea and listened to the garbage trucks outside and the birds tweet and I ate an energy bar... oh yeah, where was I?

And yet, I've read numerous published books, and am currently reading a "bestseller" right now that has at least 6 of the 10 listed mistakes and that author is a multi-millionaire.

I'm not saying a writer shouldn't learn as they go and get better. But find everything on this list all the time in books -- including the ones this agency represents. I think people like voice and they'll pretty much forgive anything else.

I've seen this kind of workshop (and even panels) at a number of conferences that I've attended, and I found them to be hideously cruel and unhelpful because...well...they weren't you.

Rather, the agents became their own version of a literary mosh pit and cut the writing to shreds while offering zero constructive criticism. It was painful to watch the tears flow from the authors' eyes.

The feedback I would hear in my own seminars compelled me to say something to conference organizers. Authors didn't spend hundreds of dollars to be insulted - which they were.

In my experience, you are the only person for whom I would say should do this workshop because I've never seen you be cruel to anyone.

I was there! It was one of my favorite sessions, I just wish it could have lasted longer. Thanks for doing it, though. It was very informative (even if mine didn't get picked).

Very good...

I'd like to know, if you have time, is there a way to learn how to write great keywords?

Thanks for the great post. I'll put your list in my writing tips.

@Anne A--an 'awkward' physical description is any at all in the first 2 pages.

Or that's my understanding. I can't stand lengthy physical descriptions of people, especially if clothing is included. And especially in the first chapter, or if it's just stuck in there to let the reader know what the character looks like and has nothing to do with the scene, or...you get the idea.

My critique partners always call me out on not describing my characters. Oh, am I supposed to do that? I dont like to read it, so I dont usually include it. But I suppose readers want to know that stuff. But please, no more than a sentence or two, or I'll start wondering what I should eat for lunch.

Have you ever done (or considered doing) a workshop at the Portland Wordstock? It's every year in October, and I personally would sign up for your workshop in a heartbeat.

I first learned about Wordstock in 2009, when Sarah Rees Brennan and Scott Westerfeld spoke at it. (I have signed copies of their books!)

If you could fit it into your schedule, that would be amazing. Frankly, it would also be an unexpected delight, as I know how busy you are.

http://www.wordstockfestival.com/

To Pia, who asked how you can tell that a story starts in the wrong place after just a few paragraphs:

Once you get a good grasp of story structure--and this goes for any kind of story, not just a novel--you start to see things you never could before.

I highly recommend Blake Snyder's Save the Cat screenwriting books, which explain structure beautifully. Don't worry about the fact that he's talking about screenplays. A story is a story is a story.

Blake died in 2009, but his wonderful advice lives on.

Paula B.
The Writing Show

What a wonderful idea for a workshop... I would -love- to participate in something like that. You should go to WorldCon this August and do it again. Eh? Eh?

Great post, Kristin. I believe that the biggest issue for writers is craft. Areas that we are weak in are like blind spots. Because they are weak, they can be hard to identify without outside help.

@Lena - thanks! I'm afraid my problem is an "awkward" description is any I write... Like you, I leave them out entirely, then things crash halfway through the book when some physical characteristic is important for another character's reaction. Sigh. I then go back and try to stick it in before the reader has formed too much of a mental image, but it always looks like a giant sore thumb.

Actually, I suppose what would be awesome would be examples of contrasting "good" and "bad" versions of such issues...

My main character is described aesthetically in the very first sentence of my upcoming first novel.

Three reasons why I left it in:

1) My writerly friends quote it around when asked for good first sentences.
2) A very picky reader (someone I never expected to like the book) stole my mum's copy of chapter one after happening to glance at it.
3) I try to pull the rug out from under the reader immediately.

Here is its current form, for your perusal and critique.

"Maybe, of a moment: ratty brown hair parted heavily to the left that almost curled but only managed to look uncombed and slightly greasy, grey cups of skin between cheek and eye, black woollen stockings, short boots with buttons on the side, stripey jumper dress, cocaine habit, love letter crumpled in hand, feathery long fingers."

I want in on this workshop so baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad! I need something like that for ms. Thanks for posting!

Kristin,
Can you tell us what workshops or conferences you will be at coming up? Can anyone else recommend any good conferences?

Fabulous post, thank you. I read a lot of short stories and first chapters on critique forums, and I usually know within a paragraph that the story isn't good enough for publication (or, sometimes, that it is). In my opinion, any writer that reads twenty novel openings by other unpublished writers will have their eyes opened in a similar way.

And now I get to go and play with my current WIP first page, yay!

Louise Curtis

Even for those of us not at the workshop, it's always great to have a list of things to watch out for, so thanks!

@Alice--

"Maybe, of a moment:

I have no clue what that means, or how it relates to the description.

The description itself is interesting, though I'd suggest putting the love letter last in that list. It strikes me as the important part--what everything else is leading up to.

@Beth

"Maybe" is the character's nickname.

Wonderful!!
This is the kind of post that I want to keep bookmarked to refer back to when doing edits. It's nice to have a list to refer to sometimes.
Thanks Ms. Nelson :)

Alice, you wanted a critique, so here goes:

It exemplifies culprits 3, 5, and 6. The stuff about the hair really needs tightening (3). The paragraph is an awkward physical description of the character (5), and it's overly flowery (6), as if you're trying too hard to write cool, pretty phrases instead of letting the story unfold.

And as someone else noted, the paragraph should end on the punchy love letter part rather than the ho hum finger description.

The bit about the cocaine habit is telling instead of showing. And it really should be shown (culprit 1). It's much more interesting to read a scene in which we discover for ourselves that a character needs and does coke than to be told she has a cocaine habit. Plus the cocaine habit phrase is jarring (and not in a good way) in a paragraph devoted to physical description.

There are some lovely, unique phrases in your first paragraph, but they're not great enough to let you break the rules.

Great post, as always.

On a totally different note, I'll be in Denver this wk & am having coffee w/Karen DeGroot at Starbucks Park Meadows Friday morning. If you can join us, that would be great. Email me or Karen if you're free. All best, Debbie. [email protected]

Thanks for posting the list, it's very helpful. I'm going to bookmark it for future reference.

Alice, I have to agree that "cocaine habit" doesn't really fit with a physical description. Maybe you could reference the track marks on her arms or something (or is that heroin? I'm not really up on illegal drugs). Or maybe there's a crack pipe hanging out of her pocket. What I mean is, that would be showing us she's a cocaine addict instead of just saying it.

"Anonymous said...
And yet, I've read numerous published books, and am currently reading a "bestseller" right now that has at least 6 of the 10 listed mistakes and that author is a multi-millionaire.

I'm not saying a writer shouldn't learn as they go and get better. But find everything on this list all the time in books -- including the ones this agency represents. I think people like voice and they'll pretty much forgive anything else.

8:06 AM"

Amen. Thanks for pointing this out. I recently saw a book that sold for $500,000 plus to a major publisher that starts with the MC describing herself and tons of telling from the beginning.

@Everyone

Thanks for the feedback! I'll bear it in mind as the piece goes into editing.

These are great tips for what to try not to do. And even though the list is long, it's encouraging to know we can learn not to make these mistakes. I'd love to be at a conference with you or Sara.

Incredibly useful, thanks.

I think I understand what is meant by #9, but not 100% certain. Can someone elaborate or provide an example?

Character description in the first 2 pages can work well if written unobtrusively and without the laundry list technique. Good description of anything will be worked into the narrative, not placed on a pedestal with red arrows pointing at it to say "look at me!" That's the mark of an amateur.

The problem with description in general is that it stops the forward momentum of a story. Pauses are good in the right places, but probably not a great way to start things out. IMO.

It really saddens me that a lot of great literature probably gets tossed to the wayside because modern agents are so obsessed with "hooks." I have read so many books lately that have a catchy beginning and then completely lose it in the middle.
If you go back and read classics like East of Eden - they all start out a little slow and meandering. John Steinbeck wouldn't have had a chance these days - and that is a real shame.

Thank you for sharing this list.

I love this approach! And for those of us who don't have an opportunity to do a two-page read-aloud to an agent, it might be a good exercise for a writing group. Although an agent's input would be invaluable, even just hearing that you "lost" your readers so early n the game might help point out some flaws.

Kristin, as one of the authors at your "Agent Reads the Slush Pile" session, (and one whose page was read,) I will admit to a bit of trembling as the session began. But your analysis of each manuscript, though firm and to the point, was fair and helpful. Throughout the conference, I was impressed by your "tough advice," laced with enough compassion that your support of new writers was evident. Thanks so much!

Only sixty miles away from me, and I never knew it. Sigh. It would have been interesting. I wonder how long it takes an agent to be able to judge by the first couple paragraphs whether or not a story will work? A few months? A few years?

Hope you had fun, that conference sounds like it would have been a blast.

Jodi

Anonymous 9:20 AM wrote: "I think I understand what is meant by #9, but not 100% certain. Can someone elaborate or provide an example?"

I imagine it is dialogue that does not multi-task. Such as show the voice but also have tension in it or move along the plot or show something about the character. But that is just my take. In general, dialogue in writing has to be cooler than in real life, that is, it has to have more meaning to it.

Jodi

I'll comb through my first two pages as soon as I finish typing this! Brutal honesty is what writers really need sometimes. Thanks for the list! :)

@Anon, above

“It really saddens me that a lot of great literature probably gets tossed to the wayside because modern agents are so obsessed with ‘hooks.’ I have read so many books lately that have a catchy beginning and then completely lose it in the middle.”

I think what Kristin is referring to is primarily genre fiction – not literary fiction, which has rules of its own. If you look at the opening of “The Mysteries of Pittsburgh,” the opening page breaks almost every one of these rules. And yet it’s brilliant; it draws the reader in slowly, tenuously. I’m in the process of revising my own opening pages. I had to forget a lot of what I learned from the authors with whom I studied. I’m writing to a different readership.

But, ITA. I am not fond of hooks either, which is why I’m so bad at them. I have a pile of books filled with clever hooks that fell apart on the third or fourth page for one reason or another (there are, however, also many exceptions to the rule).

I would really love to submit the first two pages of my book at a workshop like that. I just finished it and although I've had people read the first part of it and they keep asking to read the rest. I would love to hear what a profesional has to say.

Thanks for the advice
Ollie

as a newbie writer just creeping out from behind my shell this list was very helpful, and it will be a helpful guidepost on the journey towards a solid novel. keep the advice coming, and thanks for taking the time to help.
douglas esper

Terrific insight. I hope I have the chance to attend one of these workshops at some point! (Or, as Ted suggested, perhaps you could allow a few brave souls to have their work examined here.) :)

Ms Nelson:

I wondered if you had read Franzen's "Freedom." It seemed to me that that award-winning writer pretty much violated all your rules here. And having reviewed it for Amazon, I would say it is pretty disappointing when there are so many aspiring writers who deliver a better product.

Thank you so much for this, Kristin. To lose a fellow author is, indeed, a sad thing. Especially one with the talent of LK Madigan.

And to your closing words: For those of us, like me, who are still going through the seeking agent/publication process, this is wonderfully encouraging. Thank you.

That's one of my daydreams - that an agent like you might give me a 'close but we have to pass' only to have my story stay with them. I think you once said you contacted someone you initially passed on; was that the only time you did that?

You're right, writing like life, is about the journey. I think you can see that by reading Lisa's blog.

Also, I'd say that writing is only part of the journey. Yes, it's a big part of our lives, but not the only part of our lives. Sometimes, I think we need to be reminded of that.

I am very saddened by Lisa's passing. She was one of the (many!)bright beacons in our writing community in Portland.

Your story goes to show that from an agent/editor, you'll always hear stories about "the one that got away." From a writer's perspective, you are blessed if you find that one advocate who is truly, madly, deeply in love with your work.

@Ted I'd rather be the manuscript the pass on and then realize their mistake and email me later to see if it's still available. :)

(Okay, I'd rather not be passed on at all, but it seemed thematically appropriate.)

I'm very sorry to hear about her loss. What a sad time for the writing community.

Those are good words to remember. Thank you.

I'm reading FLASH BURNOUT now in her honor, and I can see why it stuck with you.

Hear hear.

May she rest in peace.

I wish she were alive so she could read this! Lisa was my good friend. I first got to know her in 2005, before she had an agent and when she was working on a different manuscript. But I just knew she would be published.

This past October, we shared a book launch, her for her second and me for my 10th.

I spoke to her last Tuesday, and we both knew it would be the last time we would talk.

I'm so sad that she's gone. There's a scholarship fund for her son, who is only 13.

Very sad, but even with the sadness, that was a very lovely post to teach us writers to keep at it! Thank you!

Lisa loved her paper. Somewhere, there is enough rejection letters to paper a wall. And when I locate them, I may just do that. Upon which I will mount her books, and her Morris Award.
Lisa told me that some of the best authors are never published, because they cannot overcome the rejection. She also said your first million words are your worst.
Thanks for all the kind words. L.K.'s D.H.

Another bright light has dimmed for the YA world with lisa's passing.
Thanks for the inspiring words. Writing really is a journey, and we writers should never forget that the journey really is more important than the destination. We must savor the moments as they come.

I just have to say thank you so much for posting these. I already visit sites like Query Shark, Evil Editor, and Absolute Write to learn more about writing and revising query letters. But it's so nice to have a more concrete list of things to avoid.

Ditto Yttar's comment. This post and the last one were incredibly helpful.

I agree with Yttar and Sarah. I have a clear idea of what not to do now, and it's helped me so much already.

Thanks.

Wow, these are great tips, thanks so much for posting them! I'm especially guilty of the last one--or rather, I try to include the names of things AND explanations for them, and end up with a query letter two pages long. Learning to just cut those references entirely was one of the hardest lessons I had to learn about pitch-writing!

Ditto!

I nailed three on this list (last three). I was far too vague, and the lack of info created more confusion than too much would have.

I can't emphasise how valuable this critque has been. I''m so close to nailing it this time. Maybe.

Thanks again!

Where does one find out about these web events?! Guess I need to sign up for your newsletter, Kristin.

It is awesome that you took the time to critique Pitches from all the attendees.

It was nice to have a list of turn offs in fantasy pitches. Knowing that will help significantly when the time comes to query for me. Thanks!

As a tax accountant I have to say the day you get to visit one of us is a good day...for us. :)

Your posts are a wonderful. Next time I query an agent I will be much better prepared.

Is having similar tastes in music enough to say I think Kristin would be the perfect agent for me? Today is Sade, my MS has a scene that includes Sade's haunting 'Maureen' where the protagonist knows he's dying the next day, and a kooky character name Maureen wants him to hear her theme song. If only I could get Kristin to read the rest!!!

Quill, Kristin mentioned the workshop on her blog, but it was also announced through Writer's Digest's free email newsletter. Sign up for that as well and you'll be informed about all their upcoming webinars.

Again, the webinar was awesome, and the pitch feedback I got was both helpful and encouraging. Too bad I'm only in the planning stages of my novel. I wanted to start submitting immediately. :) It's a lot of anxiety off my shoulders knowing I have a good pitch when i also actually have the book.

Thanks Kristin - I'm getting ready to query and have written a rough draft of querying that contains at least one of these, I'm sure! I can't tell you how helpful your blog is for a first-time novelist who has no clue how this business works.

great stuff. #5 in particular drives me nuts in book jacket blurbs as well.

This is solid gold info, thanks for sharing :)

How do you feel about an opening that is somewhat floating regarding world building, but answers the questions the reader has on page 3 from a different POV?

Is 2 pages of disorientation okay, or should it just be anchored from the get-go?

Number 3 made me laugh out loud. Thanks for this. I'll take any and all help I can get!

Thanks for sharing more helpful tips on how to make our queries better. I know I suffered from not describing my world enough (at all). It's hard to know what to focus on in the pitch. Even rereading your examples, which were excellent, I still feel like I'm struggling. And I'm a lawyer and write letters everyday with ease. Why can't I get this right? Thanks for all your help.

BTW, Sarah's live chat on WriteOnCon was so helpful too.

Thank you so much for these last two posts! So helpful!!

Thanks for sharing the list. I was at the Webinar and received a very helpful critique from you or Sara. I totally agree that the pitch paragraphs are extremely difficult to craft right. I know mine's not there yet and I have spent umpteen hours on it. But I'll keep working on it until it's right. Feedback from you and my critique partners will hopefully help get it to where it won't get a rejection.

Slightly off topic... I have a question about Reason #2.

Kristin just listed the top 9 tropes of the genre. Take unexpected birthright for instance. Off the top of my head: Harry Potter, Luke Skywalker, Rand al Thor, Belgarion, Bella Swan (her blood) etc. Take mysterious object. Again, off the top of my head: Bilbo and Frodo Baggins, Lyra Belacqua, Richard Rahl (who actually falls under the birthright category as well...)

My point, or question, is: Kristin, are you telling us to NOT use those plot devices whatsoever? Or are they alright as long as there is an original angle to the story, like you stress in Reason #7?

Because if no author should use those tropes any longer, that would almost be the same thing as creating another genre...

Oh no - my young adult SF has both "The main character as the key to saving the world or species" AND androids with hearts made of varying materials!

Shucks. What if I add a few more inciting incidents? Say, like, five? Then I should be better off, right?

Kidding... mostly.

Thank you so much for my critique, it was very helpful!

RE: Reason #4: If It does combine fantasy with some other element (mystery, thriller, spy in my case), what should we do?

I'm with you, Bran Flakes. If you throw out those tropes, that's a huge chunk of the genre -- past, present, and future. Maybe what she meant to say was she doesn't want to see those tropes done poorly? Not sure.

My take on it is it's not about whether those tropes are present, but rather if they are being pitched as the story's main *hook*. If there's nothing compelling to lift the story beyond the 'I've seen this before' elements, then your story won't feel fresh.

To take the Harry Potter example - I would bet the editor at Bloomsbury who did pick it up did so more based on things like Wizard School(!) than the idea that Harry was both special and orphaned (more familiar aspects).

What Iac582 said--it's about putting a new twist on things so that your book stands out as different.

Thanks for posting the list! It was quite helpful, and now I know what not to do.

Number 2 just cut your submissions in SFF down by about 80 percent.

Not that I agree with it. Plenty of room for artistic variation there.

I participated in the webinar, and it was a great experience. Thanks for critiquing all of us, Kristin and Sara!

Now if you'd just be kind enough to offer a webinar on SF&F synopsis writing, I could get my package together and start querying in earnest. *g*

This is awesome :) Thank you so much for sharing. Now, if only writers like me could start to see this in their own work...

Thanks to Kristen and Sara! The comments I got back were so helpful. There's nothing like knowing what an agent is thinking as they read your work. Invaluable!

As you no doubt know, this is a list I definitely needed to read! Querying is not my strong suit and something I most certainly must work on. Thanks for this advice! :D

Kristin, I hope you don't mind a promo plug here, but since you mentioned writers need feedback from a variety of sources, I thought maybe we could help out with links for those who are disconnected from the greater community.

There are lots of terrific critique sites out there and most everyone has a crit group to provide feedback. However, for those who don't have a support group and don't know of one, may I recommend Evil Editor? He can be a bit brutal and he goes for the jugular to wring out some laughs for the critique, but the advice is spot on AND everyone's query gets critiqued in a fairly timely fashion unlike other sites such as Query Shark. In fact, Evil Editor just recently put out a call for queries to critique as his queue is getting low.

Plus (or instead if his humor is a bit too intimidating for you), once you revise based on Evil Editor's advice and the feedback of his Minions, he tosses the revisions my way and you can continue the workshopping over at my site, where I offer line edits and rewrites. We also workshop the occasional synopsis.

Feel free to lurk at either site for a bit. Reading through other queries and critiques is educational in itself.

I attended the webinar, and I was guilty of No. 10 in my world building. What really killed the pitch, though, was a reason not on the list: I wasn't nearly as descriptive or specific as I needed to be. For my MC's arc and motivations, I gave the "what," but neglected the "how" and the "why".

Thank you, Kristin, and Sara, too, for this wonderful project. Without it, I'd surely be getting rejection after rejection without knowing exactly what was wrong.

Any webinar you do in the future, I will be there for.

I'm in real trouble then. My manuscript is over 1,600,000 words in total and has more than just one or two main characters. But damn, I enjoyed writing it.

Great post, not-so-great version of Isn't it Romantic. Ella Fitzgerald does it soooo much smokier...

Received my pitch paragraph feedback today and it was incredibly helpful. So glad I did this workshop -- between the workshop itself and the pitch critique, it was invaluable. I still have hours ahead of me to improve my pitch/query, but at least now I have a better idea of where to focus my attention. And you're right: crafting a standout query is one heck of a challenge!

Thanks so much for your time and for the detailed critique. I would participate in another workshop from you in a heartbeat.

Bran Flakes, I think the point is that those tropes will always be present an enjoyed in SF&F, expected even, but it's difficult to put a fresh face on them in your book and even more difficult to make it sound original in a condensed form such as a query or synopsis. No easy feat. I'm sure it's possibly a reason why Harry Potter was rejected several times along with many other great books that went on to sell very well.

I think the key is infusing the voice of your work into your query so it feels original. Just my two cents.

*sigh*

Back to the drawing board. ;)

No, really--this is great. I have the worst time writing queries, and this DO NOT DO list is great, because I'm getting ready to query for my YA fantasy.

I am SO glad I was able to get my pitch paragraph critiqued - the advice received was invaluable!! Trying to capture the essence of the story in 12 sentences is no easy feat! I'm happy I did well for the first paragraph - need to go back to the drawing board for paragraph two.

Question Kristin (if you can answer) - should we name other major characters in the query? I was thinking about doing this but felt if I did it would become too convoluted.

Again, thank you for your time with the critiques!

This makes me glad I don't write F or SF. :D I can see how some of those points would be a major issue.

The bad news is, we got this information a little late, and then I took even later to post it! So the cut-off date to get your orders in, along with your custom, person inscription you'd like

As to point 2 of course these will continue in this genre, but using them as the way to describe your book is where they fall flat. For example, if I tell you my book is about Harry who discovers he has secret powers and must save the world from the ultimate evil, is there anything in that line that sparks your interest? Nothing about that feels fresh or new. The challenge and head beating on the desk bit is how to have a fresh take on the old.

It would be the same as querying your romance novel as boy meets girl, boy loses girl and surprise, boy gets girl back.

Does this mean all the pitch paragraphs have been critiqued? I haven't heard back about mine yet :(

Thanks for posting this!! It is much easier to write a novel than a query letter.

Nice list! Definitely points I will go over in future queries. Thanks!

Kristin,
You provided fabulous information in the webinar and your query critique was right on.

Like Dan, I suffered from vague details in my 2nd paragraph. It's a tremendous help to receive this type of feedback.

I'll be working on nailing down the query as I wrap up my novel.

Thanks for everything.

Oh, this is going to be such a useful checklist for me! I've got a couple of practice queries written and I think I've avoided making the plot paragraph too convoluted, but it took a few tries in some cases. The book I'll probably query first seems pretty good by these standards; the closest I probably come to failing is having a main character seem like the key to saving the world. He's important, but the book makes it clear he's just one of many who could fulfill that role, and that realistically it probably wouldn't depend on one person. I just have to make sure the query doesn't make it sound like he's the key!

Thanks for this analysis.

Many thanks, Kristin, for the class and the critiques. I presume those of us who haven't heard back yet will hear soon? I'm actually amazed you got all 200 done this quickly! Wow! ^_^

Just a post to say that
lac582 nailed it: "My take on it is it's not about whether those tropes are present, but rather if they are being pitched as the story's main *hook*. If there's nothing compelling to lift the story beyond the 'I've seen this before' elements, then your story won't feel fresh."

That was point exactly and I mentioned so in the workshop. You can have these tropes in your novel--they just can't be your hook in the pitch.

Great information. Thanks for sharing it. :)
Lisa ~ YA Literature Lover

I really appreciated the opportunity to get my pitch critiqued. It was nice to know what worked and what didn't--I had a hunch already--but how to make it work could have eluded me for months.

Thanks again!

Brilliant. All writers should be required to read your blog before querying!

I think you have to love something to give it your full attention. I don't know about other writers, but I'm in a relationship with my writing. As much as I strive to be a good writer, I love my babies, whether they're ugly or not. I'd want my agent to love changing nappies as much as I do.

This might be my favorite post on your blog to date. There is a lot of comfort hidden between the lines here.

Writers write because they need to, it's great to see that you have to feel passion same as an agent. I only hope to someday be rep'ed by someone that has these same ideals.

Kristin, I have great respect for both you and your agency. I'd kill my firstborn to have you as an agent.

But this "must love" thing bothers me. The reason: I've been a contractor on lots of projects, both programming and documenting software systems. Did I take the job because I "fell in love" with the project? Nope. I took the project because I saw it was a viable concept. No, I didn't have to sell it. That was somebody else's job.

At the same time, I have to think that if I passed on a project because it wasn't something I loved, I'd simply be out the bucks.

Passion is great for your personal life, but I wonder if agents have to much attachment to that passion when they could be earning a nice chunk of change from the less than passionate projects.

I totally agree with Kristin on this.
A writer and an agent work together for the mutual benefit of both parties. I'd want an agent that loved my work (and luckily I have one). It doesn't mean I don't think an agent that passes on my work is not a good agent. Just as I am sure an agent passing on my work doesn't necessarily think it is not saleable. Sometimes there just isn't a fit between what has to be a mutually beneficial working partnership.

An agent who loves going to their job every day (or most days) should love the manuscripts they choose as well. Otherwise, getting up to go to work would be a real killer. There are more important things than money alone and passion is one of them.

Course, money doesn’t hurt either.

Marva: I've freelanced too (graphic/motion design), and I often take projects I feel no passion for, because it's possible to do professional design work without being emotionally invested in the project--in fact, it's often better *not* to be emotionally invested. Clients will demand changes and impose their vision in ways that supersede your own ideas. On most projects, I am more of an interpreter of ideas than a creator.

The agent/author relationship is completely different. The author isn't coming to the agent for help realizing their idea--they're coming to sell it, after whipping it into shape. So if the agent isn't enthusiastic, who would buy it?

So glad you posted this. :)

Marva, is your firstborn a teen?

There's a lot of hope in this post, I agree. It's not necessarily about being good enough to be published but finding the right partner in the journey.

I agree - there is comfort here. And I like the thought of an agent bowing out rather than not knowing who's truly passionate about it.

Marva: The difference is an agent IS out there to sell your work. Part of their job is to "sell it" to editors. And few agents seem to suffer from a lack of clients - the spots the have available I can understand wanting to be passionate about them.

Marva,

I've been a contractor, and I'm a published, agented writer. When I take a contract job, I have a contract that says I'll be paid when I deliver X. Agents have no idea if the ms. is going to lead to money for the time spent trying to sell it. After two rounds of submissions to editors and plenty of rejections (and not a penny made for the effort), it's the agent's passion for the project that will make them try another round. If it's strictly a business proposition, they'd probably give up after round one.

Imagine selling something you think is a good product, versus selling something you think causes the sun to rise and set. You're going to be a much better seller of the second product.

I agree with Marva. I worked in entertainment for ten years and I can tell you the studios don't make their decisions based on passion -- it all boils down to how much money they can make on a movie. There's a whole department that sits around and crunches numbers for the execs so they can make a decision about greenlighting a film. For an agent to go with passion instead of money is admirable, and I guess books are a little different, but from my experience people who sell things truly don't need to be in love with them. Think about all the other industries who market things and have to sell things to the public--why is the book industry so different?

Good for you, Kristin. We're told as writers to write from the heart and not follow what we think will be the next trend. Obviously, we want our books to sell, but I personally can only write what I'm passionate about. It's very encouraging to know there are agents out there who work from the same mindset.

I get this a good example for your blog but I can't but feel a little bad for the author if he or she is reading this. Probably took the air right out of the party balloon.

Just this week an editor I've had a long a positive working relationship with passed on my most recent novel. Not because it wasn't good enough. Not because it won't make money. It just wasn't a good fit for his house. He sent me a kind note mentioning several things he loved about the text and a suggestion about where I might find the most responsive editors.

I'm grateful. He recognized that this book would always be the misfit in his house and that the book and I deserve better. Editing is a labor intensive art and I'd rather not sell a book at all than let it go to someone who will do a half-hearted job. Passion shows in the finished product.

"There's a whole department that sits around and crunches numbers for the execs so they can make a decision about greenlighting a film."

But the agent isn't the exec in this scenario. She's the person who has to convince someone a few rungs below the exec just to take a look at a ms. Then that person has to get 2 or 3 of her peers to give it second reads. If the ms. makes it that far, it goes to ed board where sales and marketing have to approve. Then it goes to the number cruncher who provides the P&L statement that the exec uses to determine whether to buy, and the exec rarely does. All the while there are hundreds of other agents sending thousands of other mss. through the same process. There are many choices of sodas, cars, DVDs for consumers to be pitched, but nowhere near as many mss. competing for so few slots. A passionate agent is more likely to jump all these hurdles multiple times than one who just sees the money.

There are stories of agents who send a ms. out and if it doesn't sell after a handful of editors, they're out. Then the writer has to look for another agent, hard to do for a book that's already made the rounds, even if only a handful of editors ever saw it. That book is doomed unless he's lucky enough to find an agent so passionate about the "tainted" book she's willing to take it on and try to sell it. Might as well find the passionate agent from the get-go.

Agree. In writing, without the passion, there's no patience to complete it, draft after draft, and without the patience, there's no perseverance to see it through until the end when it gets published.

This applies to selling it, too. Passion, like enthusiasm, is infectious. I'd rather have someone who is passionate and enthusiastic about selling my novel, as I was while writing it, then it'll have a fighting chance to attract a passionate and enthusiastic editor, who'll then have to convince everyone else on her side of the operation.

Otherwise it won't happen and everyone suffers for it.

Yawn, here's another book. I think it's OK, it'll sell, you'll make a few bucks, so what's the problem?

I get this a good example for your blog but I can't but feel a little bad for the author if he or she is reading this. Probably took the air right out of the party balloon.

While I would be thrilled to the moon and back to work with Kristin, if my manuscript had already received an offer from a publisher and was getting multiple offers of representation from other agents I had queried, my balloon would still have plenty of air in it despite Kristin's post.

Who would want to focus on that when so many great things are happening?

That's a nice reminder for those of us not yet ready to query. It kind of puts things into perspective.

“But the agent isn't the exec in this scenario. She's the person who has to convince someone a few rungs below the exec just to take a look at a ms.”

I’m not convinced this is a valid argument. Why are the agent and the acquiring editor the only ones who must feel passion for the ms? Theoretically once a manuscript is purchased, the rest of the company has to support it. Marketing can’t turn down the job because they don’t feel passion. The agent only has to sell it to an editor, one person. What about marketing and PR, aren’t they the ones who truly have to feel the passion to sell the MS to thousands of people who will potentially buy the book? What if the agent finds a manuscript that isn’t right for her but knows the perfect editor for the project, do they pass?

To me selling a book to an editor seems easier than selling something like Greased Lightening to the public. Books have many different layers, they are complex beings with plots and characters and hooks. There is much for someone to glom onto and for someone to be able to sell to someone else. What if there were thousands of Greased Lightening products out there, how would you enter that market as a debut? I might be incredibly naive, but what if the dialogue between agent and editor were to change? What if the agent crunched the numbers and said ‘this is why you can sell it’ and kept the passion out of it? Maybe they already do this, and I hope I can still query the Nelson Agency after this post, but I feel very passionate about this issue and I'm not the kind of person to go anonymous.

cheers
KFran

I enjoyed reading this, and knowing that on that wonderful day in the future when I will get an offer of representation (positive thinking, see?), that my agent will be as excited about my work as I am! Thanks Kristin!

KFran,

"Why are the agent and the acquiring editor the only ones who must feel passion for the ms?"

Because those other in-house people will never see it if the agent can't convince the editor to read it(not buy it, they have close to no buying authority unless very high up the editorial chain). Then that editor, who has no buying authority, must go and convince her second readers (other editors with little buying authority) to read it, give positive feedback which helps acquiring editor sell it at the ed board review, where she then must all sell it to S&M. Most books don't get that far, so the sales/marketing department's enthusiasm to sell the book into accounts (B&N, etc) is moot until the agent can sell it to the publisher.

Believe me, I wish it worked out the way you describe, but I'm relaying my experience through a few books deals, which is why I remain Anon 10:05. I'm just grateful I found an agent who was passionate enough about my work to stick with me until I finally landed those deals.

We would need an agent or editor to tell us from their side of the game how often it plays out your way.

Now I think I've exhausted my two cents.

This is all very great and mature and wonderful, but for the projects you do take on -- what if the author's NEXT project just isn't something you love?

It gets "kind of" shopped and given up on? Or sort of" shopped and the client leaves because you (collective you, meaning agents) have lost the love?

That's why I hate, hate, hate all the I must BE IN LOVE crap. Because it stands to reason that an agent ISN'T going to love every book by a client.

I'll go with flat out professionalism and knowing editors who'll love a book even if it's not your favorite every time.

Speaking from a writer's perspective, I am grateful that you refuse books you're not passionate about. I appreciate your honesty in that regard.

I tell other writers (and friends who don't write) that they should never get frustrated with an agent who doesn't connect with the material. The truth is, you wouldn't want to marry someone who dated you and said "well, you know, you don't smell too bad, let's get hitched." You want to marry someone who says "you shine like the sun, I love being around you."

Although agency is a business relationship, people connect with books on a personal level. If an agent just doesn't feel the fire, you don't want them representing your work. You need to find someone for whom your novel is more than just the 'absence of suck.'

Thanks for being the honest resource you are.

Thanks for the reminder. When I get rejections telling me, "Just not right for me." I tell myself that I want an agent who is passionate about my MS, but after a couple of these, you start second-guessing yourself.

I too, do not get the love thing, although Kristin you are the bomb Wonder if you pass on this book and her next book is something you are passionate about, because obviously she has the talent, and wonder if she is passionate about having you as her dream agent. Or vice versa, (like someone else mentioned) you loved this one and not her next MS, but it is still totally saleable.

I like a lot of books I read. I only love a handful, which pretty much are the bestsellers. Where would we be without the likeable books? You know maybe the one about nosebleeds and how to stop them-who could be passionate about that?

I think this also underscores the fact that no matter how much the agent thanks us for "the look," writers are the ones who have to hope and pray someone clicks with their mss.

I often wonder when the agent who reps x-celebrity penned ego exercises such as titles like "How I got famous and look after my dog at the same time!" which you occasionally see on the shelves, if they are repping it for the "love". Yes. It seems the only ones who are rejected for lack of love are the unknowns, but for the knowns, well, we'll just rep them because we know they're a gold mine. Sorry unknowns, we just don't "love" you as much as Tiger Wood's 37th mistress.

I think what's important to note here too is that this author already has serious interest/offers from both publishers and agents. Given that, it frankly doesn't make a whole lot of sense for Kristen to put her time and energy into trying to win this author when she's likely up against people who are simply more passionate about the project than she is.

It's a no-brainer really. If you are the author, who would you choose? The agent who is madly in love with your work or the one who is lukewarm? One of the biggest assets an agent brings to the table is their enthusiasm, their GENUINE enthusiasm for a writer's book.

This seems to depend on the agent. I went to a conference last year where there was an agent panel. All the agents said they needed to feel passionate about a manuscript except one. One male agent said it was much simpler for him--can he sell it? Period. So if you want an agent that is just focused on the sell, they are out there.

I personally am happy that I have an agent who is passionate about my story. If someone loves your book, it's going to come across in their sales pitch. It's also going to keep them motivated when they have to read your manuscript over and over during the editing process.

I think one of the things that the "how come you can't sell something you don't love?" people are missing is that an agent does a LOT more than just broker a sale and then step back and wash her hands of the process.

The agent is the go-to person anything goes wrong.

I generally abhor calling books babies, but they are like babies in this sense: If you didn't love them, you would sometimes contemplate murder.

The passion matters not just for the sale, but to keep up the energy to make sure the book gets the attention and treatment it deserves to do well down the line.

"The passion matters not just for the sale, but to keep up the energy to make sure the book gets the attention and treatment it deserves to do well down the line."

Yea, but isn’t it passion for the job, not passion for the book that we want? I want an agent who is passionate about her job, who loves doing what she's doing so that she can stay dedicated to me for years. Sure, she can love my book, but if she doesn't love her job what's the point?

I'm passionate about my day job, I sometimes work 60 hours a week on it because it's very important to me. But, I'm certainly not that excited about the products I've built over the years (online stamps, whoopee) I guarantee I've given my projects attention and dedication for years and years because I enjoy my work, not so much because I enjoyed the project. This is what I'm looking for in an agent, someone who loves their job and not necessarily my book. That kind of dedication shines through.

Great post. Thanks so much!

You say it's not an answer, but it is. Thinking about it, I've encountered this in my own reading. The story intrigued me enough to read through to the end. But at the end of the book, the characters didn't resonate enough for me to see their story to the conclusion. (It was first of a trilogy.)

Analyzing it, I can understand your point of view on this matter with regards to requesting material.

Thanks for this post.

What if you did this and author rewrote story? As in added 20k and changed names, added to world building etc. Really rewrote it after finding beta readers and getting feed back?

Would it be worth a retry? Or not?

Why would we stick with a book if the main character isn't someone we'd want to hang out with? It could be likability or that the character is damn interesting. If neither...

The answer makes sense to me. I experienced this issue on the side of a critic in a past critique group. We had a member who had a difficult time with his first couple of chapters because no one felt they had nothing about the main character to latch onto for a whole novel.

It's not easy to hear readers say "I wouldn't continue reading past chapter one because of the main character." His novel got better with a secondary character that appears but that's not gonna help if the first chapters don't get the reader interested.

Oh gosh. You asked for my pages and now I'm scared. Bummer. The waiting for the yes send more or no thanks email is hell.

I've been able to read books in the past where I disliked the main character, but it really does make it more difficult. There's been time's I really have tossed a book aside because I was so frustrated with the protagonist. Which is probably a bad sign.

Leona said...

What if you did this and author rewrote story? As in added 20k and changed names, added to world building etc. Really rewrote it after finding beta readers and getting feed back?

Would it be worth a retry? Or not?

@ Leona

Changing names, world, etc., doesn't create a more likable character. If you can't address that issue, the rest isn't going to help.

But I think what you're asking is: is it ok to re-query? Most agent advice I've seen says "Yes, IF you've made significant changes." But wait a few months, and then do it only once. And then move on. At worst, you get rejected again, for that project.

The problem with re-querying is that most of the time you don't know why you were rejected. Which means it can be difficult to make effective changes--the reason for the initial rejection may be one you have no idea of. So it doesn't hurt to re-query--politely and ONCE--but in general, it's not the most constructive use of your time.

Hi Kristin,

You passed on my 30 pages recently. (sad face) Maybe I'm one of those you are referring to in this post. I assumed it was my writing or story line...didn't think about the fact that maybe you didn't connect with the character(s). hmmmm. Food for thought. Thanks...love your posts!

Had I been the one to query you I would have been thrilled to get any feedback at all on a rejection.

I disagree about that not being an answer. Even if the story moves a bit slowly or I stumble over a plot hole I'll keep reading if I like the MC. The common denominator for a DNF is that I don't like the protagonist. I've gotten three quarters of the way through a pretty decent story and gave up on the book because there was no indication that the MC would ever grow into someone I might like.

When all is said and done, I have to like the main character enough to care about what happens to her.

Sounds like you can have all the elements of good writing, but without the "X factor," it feels like something is missing.

The X factor is different for each person--that's what makes finding the right match all the more important.

I agree with the other comments--this is definitely an answer.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

Anyone ever read "Bonfire of the Vanities"? I hated the main character by page four...but I finished the novel. I think Robert Guthrie nailed it. The character has to be likeable OR damned interesting.

I've read characters that I just didn't connect with. I wondered why they were published, maybe someone did like them...but I'm turned off when the characters are totally whiney and annoying...who wants to hang out with that for 250 page?

I, for one, wish agents could stop time. Yes, that's right. If they could, perhaps they could take a little of that stolen time and let those of us who have sent in those "well-crafted, but" queries know what it is we are doing wrong. Because the problem I see with never knowing, is that we may continue to keep making the same mistakes over and over and over again with each subsequent novel. I fully understand why agents can't take the time with rejections, but we all wish you could.

I'd be grateful to get the feedback that you didn't like my character well enough to keep reading. In fact, I did get that from an agent and also a beta reader and it caused me to really think hard and do a *great* deal of re-working to my story. What I have now is so much better. I really needed to know that. :)

I'm the kind of person who automatically assumes the worst in any given situation (because it's usually true). ANY feedback whatsoever is good. "I didn't like the characters" means ... hell, maybe it's just taste and I can have hope that the next person might. Non-specific stuff makes me figure I suck so hard that light can't escape.

(Yeah, all I've ever gotten is non-specific stuff.)

I'm halfway through The Magicians right now. Quentin and Alice are starting to get on my nerves despite liking them a lot up until now. I expect I will love and hate them throughout the second part of the novel. What keeps me going is that they feel like friends now even if they are getting on my nerves, and I want to find out what terrible things await them in the next 200 pages based on the mysteries Lev has set up so far.

I guess you just have to get the write balance...

It's an answer.

Kristen,

It's most definitely an answer, at least the writer knows that part of what they are doing is right and they know what they need to improve.

As someone who writes realistic, character-driven fiction, this has always been a problem for me. I don't enjoy writing "sweet" characters, but go too far the other way, and you're going to have trouble even finding an agent.

I just finished reading THE MAGICIANS, and I had the same reaction. The characters really weren't likeable, but I had a hard time putting the book down, the storyline was so compelling.

Even at the end, they really weren't especially nice people, any of them.

It was sort of like if Harry Potter had grown up without the any moral compass -- no Hogwarts staff or stable friends or inspirational, dead parents.

That's a reason, and it's better than a form rejection, which I just got from an agency. The form just leaves you wondering -- was it concept? character? writing? length? if you know, it gives you the option of rewriting in a way that may eliminate the problem.

Love your blog.

I felt the same way about THE MAGICIANS. I loved the book - I even wrote Lev Grossman and drove him crazy telling him how much I enjoyed it, even though I couldn't stand 95% of the characters. Then I went on Amazon and read the reviews, and I couldn't believe how many people disliked the book just because the characters weren't sympathetic. Just because a character isn't charming and perfect doesn't mean the book can't be wonderful, but it goes to show how personal preferences mean everything.

I think it's a super answer - it's direct enough that a good writer can understand it and run with it.

BTW, I started reading your blog because I love anyone who shares their music choices. And so far, I've picked up a few of them. Thanks for that!

Back in the day the best rejection I EVER got was when I was told my MC just wasn't sympathetic enough to grab the reader.

Heave big sigh.

Execute rewrite #25.

Insert tweaks to round out MC into a believable person, tough, but likable.

Next time out it sold.

Yin/yang works.

A good thing!

Interesting though, since a lot of agencies don't allow writers to query multiple agents at one agency at the same time.

Lucky for them!

Thank you for sharing this perspective! Differing taste is definitely a good thing.

An off-shoot of what Kathryn says: For some agencies, a "no" from one agent is a "no" from all. In this case, a writer could be missing out by querying the wrong agent in the agency. (Even after extensive research.)

@Sandy Shin,

It sounds like the writer in this case emailed both Kristin and Sara at the same time, which is a no-no for some (probably most) agencies, right?

Unless the writer queried only one and they both decided to read the full submission...? Maybe it was that.

Very encouraging to hear on a day when I received a rejection ;-)

I think this is the sort of thing aspiring writers can't be reminded of enough. As a species we tend to take rejections in an intensely personal way, and it can be hard to remember that sometimes it has absolutely nothing to do with the manuscript and everything to do with personal taste and opinion.

Thanks for posting this!

@ Kathryn

Most likely the writer only queried one. Double check, but I believe Kristin and Sara both read fulls, just to make sure that something of interest to one of them doesn't get rejected out of hand.

Well, I do believe there will always be "The One" agent for me who will like my work.:)

This is a timely reminder for me. I just received a rejection on a partial because she didn't like the futuristic setting or the militant feel of the book. I wondered why she bothered to request it in the first place, since those characteristics are made clear in my query. The point is, that same partial is still out to another agent who requested more after reading sample pages--the ones that show you right away we're in the future and there's gonna be guns. Completely different tastes, apparently.

Personal tastes aside, every agent is at a different place in his or her career, too, so that's going to influence how many manuscripts they request and how many offers they make. I imagine Sara has a bit more room in her list than you do at the moment.

(Which isn't to say that Sara didn't fall in love with the manuscript, of course. Newer agents are just a little hungrier than more established ones.)

Best of luck to the newly agented writer:)

Definitely a reminder to me of how subjective this industry is, and the importance of finding the right Agent with whom to work with; they need to believe in and love the manuscript as much as the author.

Glad for that writer who didn't get passed!

LOL

And it's a great reminder when we're rejected, just keep pressing on.

This is so true. I know it's said over and over, but it only takes one agent to love a project, just as it only takes one editor to love it and push for it to see the light of day/page.

I couldn't agree more with your comment as it relates to how subjective this industry is. Timing also plays a role, but it can easily be categorized in the "subjective" category.

My book just won a NIEA (Finalist Award). It was a great feeling to know that these judges enjoyed my book, considering the great competition from wonderful books they were considering.

Anyway, talk about subjective, I have been contacted by an entertainment company who wants a screen play (almost done) inspired by my book but I'm still looking for an agent. Maybe Kindle is the next stop for me.......

This is why writers shouldn't hesitate to query more than one agent at the same agency. Just don't query them at the same time!

Kristin,

Thank you so much for this blog post. You have perfect timing.

Alas, while my manuscript *did* have a B&B in it, it didn't have any of the other factors--but I still received a rejection from y'all anyway.

Your blog post makes perfect sense, and my submissions are gathering interest elsewhere. Everything is so subjective. We as writers and readers know this, but it's still always saddening when we wish the "no" could have been "yes."

Keep up the great blogging work. Thanks again for the perfect timing!

Elaine

If Sara passed after reading a partial is a writer allowed to query you with it, or is a no on a partial still a "no" for the whole agency?

Purely hypothetical, of course... :)

Well, you've certainly helped me breathe easy. :) Thanks, Kristin.

Gotta love it. I just tuned in to your blog for the first time yesterday and when I read today's title I just HAD to click over. I'm impressed and encouraged that you kept reading. I like that.

~Olivia Herrell

I made a blog post today about yesterday's topic and realized that in order to jump on the trendy-train, you probably have to have a manuscript ready before it becomes a trend. It just seems to me that the agents are quick to exclude popular genres to start a new hype.

But then maybe I'm just getting it all wrong.

I didn't notice this trend among books, but maybe it's an upcoming trend? I've only read one book where the main character dies in the first chapter, but I didn't find it interesting enough to actually finish.

Anyway, at least the person knows you didn't turn it down without actually finishing the sample pages. I think that should be somewhat comforting.

Thanks for the post.

I found your blog post interesting, as this happens in my book (though it is not YA). I'm not surprised it's a popular theme, since the afterlife affords limitless opportunities for creativity.

I am glad you kept reading, even if you did ultimately pass. Since there aren't a lot of popular books out now with this theme, it sounds like it might be 'the new vampire'. Tee-hee!

Cyndi
ctefft.blogspot.com

LOL! I could just imagine you saying out loud, "Not again!"

Love the irony, first of all. Too bad that you had to pass.

I would love to hear more about what "grabs" agents when it comes to characters. It seems very vague sometimes.

Remilda, I've seen a few books in the teen section over the last couple years in which the main character is already dead, or dies right off the bat. No titles stick with me. Possibly because I wasn't that interested-- it's hard to get past the protag's being dead.

I can see where the idea comes from. It's an adolescent fantasy. "They'll all be sorry when I'm dead!" But that's followed by the thought that one wouldn't be around to appreciate how sorry everyone was. Unless...

It's a trend I didn't know about, but I'm sick of vampires so maybe that has something to do with it.

You could read the first chapter of my YA fantasy novel and think that my protagonist dies at the end of it, but hey, you have to give the reader a few surprises, right?

At the begining of ch 2, she's still there. It was a false alarm. Just thought I'd let you know in case you were interested in reading ch1 at http://publishersearch.wordpress.com/lethal-inheritance/

I'd love to know what you think.

After reading your blog, I've told myself that if I ever tried to write a book... I'll keep this thing in mind befoe contacting an agent...

Thanks for the post.

The only book I can think of off the top of my head that tells the story from dead MC pov is Lovely Bones. I've never read it (I'm not one for sappy, sad stories) but I've heard it's a real tear jerker.

The Luxe series starts off with a dead heroine... but! (Won't spoil it for those who haven't read the books!). I guess if the writing's good, you push on regardless of the premise...

I once read a novel by Nathan Aldyne (Michael McDowell) where 3/4 through the book the protagonist is killed off and his brother picks up the rest of the story!!coloti

Sorry---"coloti" was the capcha I accidentally put in the text. Ignore it---I'm distracted by listening to Joan Jett.

I read a Christopher Pike book called "Remember Me," where the character is murdered and helps solve her death---this was WAY before the lovely bones, and I think a lot more fun and satisfying, too!

2003 and Stewart O'Nan's book "The Night Country" was the first book I remember with "dead" teenagers that important to the plot. O'Nan is an excellent writer and perhaps he was the tipping point that triggered this current wave of protagonist killing.

With the film of Lovely Bones coming out, I expect a trend of copycat dead protagonists will continue for a while.

Thank you! I was able to share this with my editing class students. We've discussed how *not to start a novel (sleeping, dreams, weather, etc.). Killing your character wasn't on the list but should be. Obviously in a paranormal you can bring the person back from the dead, but I can see that even that is cliche now.
Regards, the Editor Devil

Cool post. Interesting since I have just critiqued another author for possibly the wrong starting point for a story.

I've panned an agent for 'not getting it'. As a moderately successful author I've submitted my novel and found the agent in question just did not read nearly as eruditely as I anticipated. Don understood my stuff. His junior agent did not. Something I find distressing in American Agents as opposed to British ones...

Starting in the right place is tough stuff. I had to cut 30k words on one of my WIPs b/c, well, the story didn't really get started until the 30,001 word. :) But it was crazy torture to cut all of that character-building (i.e., all of the super fun scenes that I made up just to get to know my characters) nonetheless.

:)

I have to say I learned the hard way. Only after a couple of rejections I saw it in my own MS, though no agent said it explicitly. I've been revising it like crazy after I found the "real" beginning, about 80 pages in.

Hey, I'll be happy to send you some of my novel beginnings to use as examples. If I can't be published and in the bookstore, being the bad example on an agent's blog is the next best thing. Hmm. Okay, maybe it's the 93rd best thing, but fame is fame!

This is utterly timely for moi as, having written the novel I needed to write, I am currently writing the one readers need to enjoy. Yes, they are the same book. And thanks to Brenda Baker, Yoda aka, who pointed me in the right direction (and towards this blog).

cheers
J.R. MacLean

I'm glad you pointed this out because I used to think that a slow or wrong beginning meant I wasn't a good enough writer.

Thanks for the post!

One of the best tips I received early on was the fish-cleaning method of editing. Cut off the head and tail of a scene. I took that suggestion to heart and even cut off the head and tail of dialogue. Not literally, of curse, because not everything can be cut. But it does make me constantly aware of how many filler words can be in narrative and dialogue.

This is the issue I struggle with most and I'm addressing it this week in revision #9. :)

Thanks for the tip! Blocky backstory=bad, seamless integration=good.

It took me a long time to learn this.

Thank you for the very straight-forward information. It's always great to get the kind of hints that apply to everyone.

- Liz

I hate when I'm writing and realize I've started at the wrong place. But usually I can salvage some of what I wrote. Btw: Love Manic Monday :-)

Thanks for this. It's an important thing to know.

For those who need help with figuring out where the real beginnings of their stories are, there are sites that assist authors. One such site is Forward Motion for Writers. (It is the only one I know, but all the writers I know there are very helpful and kind and some could probably give references to other helpful writing sites.)

Haha! When the target is painted that clearly, it's easy to figure out when it's on your own back! Mea culpa.

If it will help others avoid the mistake, you most certainly have my permission to use my submission.

Great post! I shared on Twitter.

I assume everyone else ran through the first pages of their manuscript while reading this?

I was poking around on your website the other day and I couldn't see how many sample pages you ask for in a submission--so I'm glad this subject came up. How many pages do you like to see along with the query?

As a submitting author, this is actually really great information.
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http://jostorm.blogspot.com/

Hi Kristin,
Thanks for sharing that pertinent insight. I'm just off to check my manuscript! :)
Regards,
Col

I tried to point out to a writer I'm critiquing that his first couple chapters drag terribly, but he came back with, "If I don't show how things 'used to be', then I can't show how they change!" I understand the concept of showing contrast, but at the same time I don't think it's working the way he thinks it is.

Suggestions on how to break it to him another way?

This is simple but insightful. And as I start writing my opening chapter today after months of research, perfect timing. Thank you.

Touché! Sounds exactly like me and my WIP. Luckily it's the first draft :).

Regards,
Christine in Finland

Learning where to start a story has been one of the most useful things I've done for improving my own writing. I can't count the number of times I've read something (particularly if it's fantasy) that contains a mind-numbing amount of unnecessary padding before the plot gets started.

Great advice. I think we as writers concentrate on our own submissions so much we forget how much competition for agent spots are out there. I recently left my agent Gary Heidt after many years together and now am back to the search for agents. I do have several full ms. under review right now, and sometimes the anxiousness of waiting for a reply outweigh the reality of how many submissions the agent has to go through. The first chapters are so important.

I know everyone may not be able to afford it but getting your work professionally copy edited before submitting might solve this problem. I'm not agented or published but I recently did this, and the editor pointed out this exact same problem. I'm confident now that my manuscript is polished. I think if you take this confidence to querying you stand a good chance of success.

My advice for finding an editor. Follow their blog and see how they interact with followers. Ask lots of questions. Don't let your heart or enthusiasm decide. Take your time. I hope you find a good match. Good luck. Thank you Kristin. Cheers, Simon.

Although I realized this a year or so ago - and cut 30 pages clean away from my ms, I STILL have to remind myself of it every day. Thanks for the post.

Vicki, it sounds to me like the writer isn't going to hear you. Some people aren't ready, and I've found in critique that the more defensive they are, the less likely they are to change--including what needs to be changed. Your job is to critique; the rest is up to the writer. You've done your job. Maybe he'll be ready later, maybe not. But it's down to him.

I know my WIP currently does not start where it will start; part of that is just writerly housekeeping that is yet to be done this draft go round. But getting the start right is a tough thing to learn. I think I'm correct about where to begin, but I'm open to change, definitely. There's a reason they call it a first draft!

James Scott Bell has said that a story should begin with a disturbance in the lead’s life. As a reminder to myself, I call this the initial disturbance. Wherever we choose to start, the first part of the story will be what the reader sees as the status quo for our protagonist and that won’t change until we get to the inciting incident later in the story. We want our status quo to be interesting enough to carry the story for a while, so we want to start at a point when the status quo is about to “kill” the character. I don’t mean that literally, but when we consider a book like The Adventures of Tom Sawyer we see a simple beginning of his aunt trying to find him and yet that beginning reveals that Tom would like to have more freedom than his aunt allows.

I finally learned to just start the book on Chapter Four rather than having to throw away the first three chapters later!

Scott

"backstory--info the writer needs to know but the reader doesn’t."

Yep, a trusted reader called me out on this early on, and I realized the first few pages that I'd written were simply me thinking through the characters and what I wanted to convey about them...I didn't initially have the patience to let the story's progression reveal these characteristics more naturally, and the subsequent revisions are so much stronger.

And re: Jordan's comment above about starting "with ONE incident that's a case study for what's wrong with the character's life," I'm hoping that is an effective way of beginning, as it's what my first chapter briefly captures.

Thanks to you and your commenters for the valuable insights!

Ack, I'm struggling with this at the moment. I got a personalised rejection of a partial saying that the opening chapter 'was backstory', when it is in fact the start of the story - a cop discovering a theft and being set on the case.

My betas all liked the start and one even said I started too late - I should have shown the theft!

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I've looked and looked and I can't see where else I can start it because that is where the story starts.

Again, ack!

Krisitin,

I actually rewrote the entire first 30 pages of my novel after hearing you speak about pitches, plot catalysts, etc.

I am forever thankful for that wake-up call.

My heart dropped when I read your post, since I'm pretty sure my story was in the slush pile. You're more than welcome to use my pages as an example. I'd love to have your insight as to how I can make my story better!

HUGELY helpful - thanks!

Fantasy Author Terry Brooks addressed this in his memoir/writing advice book.

I paraphrase, but he basically said, Nothings starts at the beginning. Things tend to begin and end in the middle of other things, so do yourself and your readers a favor and start in the middle of something interesting instead of something boring.

The book is 'Sometimes the Magic Works' and it is an excellent read regardless of what genre you write in.

Hello Kristin,

I really enjoy your blog, and todays post is perfect for me right now. I knew my first chapter had issues and all of this makes sense. I am going back to rewrite and rewrite and rewrite! Practise makes perfect!

Thanks for the great advice,
Talei

Interesting discussion, and good general advice if not specific advice, it would seem to me. I assume it does not mean that *some* backstory/exposition is not useful at the beginning of a story. I can see that two chapters is a bit much!

I wouldn't like to think that a somewhat inexperienced agent's assistant (not in this case I'm sure, but you get my drift) had a check-list that looked something like this:

backstory -- out!
adverbs -- out!
telling not showing --out!

That's what I usually call 'creative fiction fascism' (but again not in this case).

It's worth counting the number of adverbs Rowling uses in her dialogue attributions to see how readers don't really care much about creative fiction 'rules' as long as it's a good read.

I've just been reading competition entries and I've found this same problem - too much back story at the start of the book.

Excellent advice, I'm going to link to this post on my blog because it's such excellent information and advice.

This feedback is worth its price in gold as is all of Kristin's advice. Finding the right start for a novel is probably one of the toughest parts of the process. If you're in the San Francisco Bay Area, I'm teaching a craft class on this very subject called "Strong Beginnings" this Saturday 5/8. Info here: http://bit.ly/cetB8h

Kristen,

I always learn from your posts. Thanks. My Professor is drilling home the same topic. I forwarded your post to him.

Gloria

Fantastic!!! Great advice, one which we should be reminded all the time. Easy to forget.

Good to know! I would like to see more posts like this, on what writers are doing right/wrong. Haven't seen as much of these lately. Maybe get Anita's thoughts from time to time ;)

One other comment I could make: It strikes me that the "not too much backstory" rule agents & editors are always going on about isn't nearly as important as they claim. Because I keep running across books that break this rule over and over again, so despite y'all's complaints about it, you're still letting many of these get through the process. An example I'm reading now is "The Perfect Storm" which should have been called "The Perfect Bore" because I'm almost halfway through and it's not even raining yet. Although a big wave has just crashed into the boat so does this mean the storm is starting? NO!!! It means it's time to go back to yet ANOTHER long draggy passage about New England fishing techniques, sword fishing in particular, boat equipment, Newfoundland geography, how sucky it is to be at sea for a month without women, etc.

Hell, I'm FROM New England and I find this boring! A storm, a storm, my kingdom for even a freaking drizzle! Granted, "The Perfect Storm" is non-fiction but I recently read Anna Quindlen's "Rise & Shine" which snuck in the boring backstory every other sentence, it seemed. That can slow a story down just as much as whole chunks or chapters of backstory.

This sort of thing just encourages beginning writers to ignore these "rules", y'know!

Always a hard road to move on for an author... but most of the time it's the right call.

I thought your advice was pretty standard form--in almost any industry, not just publishing. If I were that dude, I'd totally be all over writing something new for the American market--I mean, why not? It would be a challenge and an exciting one at that...I kinda feel bad for his previous agent, though. I mean, ouch. If they needed help selling the book across the pond, then they would have called their agenty-friends here, right? That's what I'd do...

I'd think if the guy was doing well outside the US and had a pretty good rep that an agent would want to jump onboard on at least the potential of the author, even if it meant getting his book published at a smaller house. That is, it's a start. If the guy has promise, there will be rewards sooner or later.

I'm so glad I have found your blog! I see lots of relevant tips for me, as I am about to submit my work to an agent or two.

Thank you!

Stephen

Wow your a nnice agent. no wonder you get so many queries a day

I don't know how helpful it is necessarily either, but it certainly is interesting. I know I appreciate the opportunity to peak over an agent's shoulder, virtually speaking.

Thanks for the commentary. It helped me. I've gotten comments like the ones you'd written on submission 4, and I always wondered if the agent was just being nice when they said that it was just a matter of finding the right agent.

Thanks for the glimpse!

"I don’t mind sharing although I personally don’t think they help you blog readers all that much..."

Ouch!

Do literary agents take out some sort of extra insurance for their eyes?

Whether or not it helps anyone else, I love to see what goes through your mind while you're going over submissions. It helps me see what agents might be looking for when they read my stuff. More specifically, last summer I submitted sample pages to Sara and was sad that she didn't end up requesting a full manuscript, but then you posted about how crazy your week had been and the number of submissions and what you liked and didn't like about two YA submissions and it really helped me understand what I was missing in my work. I learned a lot and have kept writing because of a post just like this one.

Even if it doesn't say much for my chances either way, it encourages me to hear that you're still in a reading mood, especially since I finally sent you my query! I love that y'all are so communicative with potential clients.

We love it when you share this kind of info with us. Don't worry, we understand that ultimately, it's about the writing.

It sounds like a good day. :)

You are right, of course - this doesn't really help us since there are so many factors regarding what makes sample pages amazing, but it FEELS like this is helpful. I feel like I am getting some real insight into an agent's mind (and not just any agent's mind, an agent who I plan on querying in the coming months), so this is a real treat. Thanks, Kristen!

Thx for sharing...

It's really interesting to hear you say you can see another agent liking something. I've gotten that comment before, and I've wondered if it's part of a polite, personal sounding-yet-form rejection, or if they really meant it. Seeing that you really meant it is nice to hear; perhaps the other agents really meant it as well.

Always interesting to read what an agent thinks when reading submissions.

Really bring home the fact that agents are readers just like the rest of us...what impresses some may not impress others and vice versa.

You're right about these types of posts not really being "instructive" in any sense, but they're always interesting and enjoyable reads. :)

Thank you for this, I like the updates and seeing how the submission process works from your side. It wasn't that you hated any of the work, it's just that there wasn't enough to make you love it. And that's important for authors to know. :o)

Thanks for posting this. I know much of it rides on the writing, but it's interesting to see your thought process behind it.

I like that you told the author another agent might like the book. That probably made his/her day even though you rejected it :)

Yay. It's great to hear you getting excited about a manuscript. It's always refreshing to encounter people who actually LOVE their jobs :)

Four your fourth submission, the one by the gender-neutrally named author, if (s)he had included a website as part of his/her query, would you have investigated as part of your review process?

Do agents really mean that "I'm sure another agent will feel differently" thing? I'd always assumed that was just a nicer way of saying no.

Getting an insight of how an agent looks at submissions is not only interesting, but it can be encouraging. It just reminds us how subjective this business is (especially the comment about submission 4). Thanks for sharing this - the post is probably more helpful than you realise.

Also love the feeling of peeking over an agents shoulder..thanks for sharing..

Hi! New to your blog, but I'm enjoying the insider's look into your work as an agent.

I really like your music choices so far. Listened to any Tracy Chapman lately?

That was a riveting opening and I learned so much without noticing that I was. Terrific. Now, I'll read her books, for sure.

"His pace was casual, as if he were just taking his gun out for a moonlit stroll."

I love this line! It does an amazing job of capturing the essence of the character's personality in a single sentence. I have to admire an author who can blend those little but oh-so-important character details into the action. I'm definitely going to have to order her book.

Nice, sounds right up my alley.

This is cruel. If you continue posting books with such great opening pages, my To Read list will never shrink. You are torturing me.

I'm very impressed. I've never read this author before but I can recognize good writing. Great example.

I don't read much SF, but this looks interesting. I especially liked the line about taking the gun for a moonlit stroll. Made me chuckle.

I love Linnea Sinclair and read "Gaberiel's Ghost" with the first cover that's screams science fiction. I'm not sure if I would pick up the book with the second cover since I haven't read her before then.

I'm not a big fan of any genre with "Romance" tacked on. I usually skip those pages. With authors that I know, I'll hold my nose if the cover stinks and buy the book.

A great opening indeed. Lots of action and plenty at stake, tension, hooks and intrigue. What I like is that she doesn't patronise the reader by explaining stuff - you have to stay alert and work some of it out for yourself.
That's enough to make me want to read it!

WOW! I first started reading this purely as instructional thing. Something that was approved on this site.

But as soon as I read the first two sentences, I completely forgot the fact this was a little exerpt meant for study. I was actually reading the story. Now, I will have to go and get the book.

Interesting blog you got here. I'd like to read a bit more concerning this theme. The only thing it would also be great to see here is a few pics of some gadgets.
Alex Flouee
Phone jammers

I enjoyed that. I also liked the prologue post and have learnt something important about my writing. Thanks, Simon.

I first read Gabriel's Ghost because I'd heard about it here, and something about it getting (nominated for?) an award for best paranormal romance when there wasn't a ghost in it. That piqued my curiosity enough that I read it, and I was astonished to realize I actually liked it.

I've been considering buying it ever since. I've checked it out a few times from the library—have it now, actually.

Boring...

Wow. I'm HOOKED. While I try to hone my craft to reach this standard, I'll definitely be looking out for this book (and writer). Thanks for the great post, Kristin!

First, I love your blog. Thanks for ranting a bit.

This is definitely not my favorite genre, though I was far from bored. No doubt, a fabulous writer and a great opener. Because I am a novice working on my first novel, it was also semi-depressing...

Not that I dislike my writing or my story, but, as you noted, I feel that I do struggle with moving the plot or conflict well. I excel at character development and showcasing emotional travelogue...but external conflict is a chore. One I hope to master, but a chore nonetheless.

Thanks for the post. Can you supply any tips for those of us who rely on emotional connection with the reader early on rather than the excitement of an ever-cornering external punch??

Help! =)

Kind Regards,
Amanda C.

That's good, but I liked the opening to DOWN HOME ZOMBIE BLUES by Linnea Sinclair better.

If anyone is shy of anything smacking of Science Fiction, but want to give it a try I recommend DOWN HOME ZOMBIE BLUES because it's set almost entirely right here on planet Earth. If it doesn't sucker you in, nothing will.

Awesome opener. It's unfortunate both covers are really ugly...I don't know who hires these artists, but using human photography has been out since the '90s... it's so cheesy, I expect this to be a great book, and it deserves more than some half-baked 3D renders of two human being or the cut and paste of the Ghost poster (I assumed this was meant to be an homage...) with another rip-off of a Stargate from the popular franchise of the same name.

My rant on craptastic covers is over, thank god it's not foreshadowing of the writing!

Agree the writing is much, much better than the covers.

I thought it was ordinary. I switched off after the first para. And I wouldn't say the genre is foreign to me.