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“45:22– What really made All-New All-Different Marvel the success that it was?”

It seems like the jury’s still out on whether ANAD was a success or not. I’ve not actually seen anyone try and prove it mathematically one way or the other but it seems the general mood is that ANAD is arriving with a thud.

For the first time since the Silver Age (when there were still many more mainstream publishers) DC & Marvel could go bust as comic publishers and the comic industry would do just fine. Graphic novels, alternative comics and the internet would continue to deliver the goods

For the first time since the Silver Age (when there were still many other mainstream publishers doing well) DC & Marvel could go bust as comic publishers and the industry would survive just fine.

With graphic novels, alternative publishers, the Image Comics partnership model and the internet there is no doubt comics would continue as entertainment and as an art form.

Is there an echo in here. If you so choose delete the first comment.

That industry would be hard to recognize. Most comics shops are operating on slim margins, and losing the weekly churn of spandex floppies would be fatal. Big cities and college towns might each have a single bookstore-style shop that could stay afloat, and maybe megacities would have a few, but that’s it. It’s conceivable that Diamond could downsize enough to keep at it, but doubtful, so any survivors would need to use book-trade distributors (whose returnability terms are not small-press-friendly).

That leaves digital delivery for single issues, and online-ordering for paperbacks. Amazon would control the lion’s share of this business, at both the distributor and retail levels (the same thing, for them). Digital delivery is growing, but it’s still a niche. The disappearance of paper monthlies would push some of that business to digital, but it would push a lot of paper-lovers to trade-waiting. However, Image creators often depend on those monthly sales to pay the rent, because it can take years after starting a project for income from paperback sales to reach them.

So, yes: there would still be an industry, and certainly an art form. But we’d lose more than just Marvel and DC if they imploded.

I tend to think the artform and industry would be in a much healthier place right now if Marvel and DC shut down in the late 70s.

Imagine the work the “class of 84” could have done if they weren’t tethered to mainstream superheroes.

84? 86?
You know what I mean.

My question:

A Multiversity Universe

Or

A Convergence Universe?

“After the DCYou proved to be a bust…” Yeah because they stuck awful creative teams on all the books, talked down to their viewership, infantilized the female characters, generally had mediocre to awful characterization and writing, and generally ignored what their readers actually wanted DC to do, which was create quality storylines with decent characterization for their established characters.

As long as DC keeps prioritizing short-term readers over creating long-term readers and keeping their existent fanbase, we’re going to keep seeing these gimmicks of the year and the majority of the reader base unhappy with the way DC is handling their books.

I wouldn’t mind going back to pre New 52 continuity, especially since they still can’t seem to keep current continuity straight anymore, but it seems like that would be a bad financial decision too, wouldn’t it? Throwing away all the money and energy spent trying to establish this new continuity? We’ll see I guess, but it’s been awhile since Didio and Lee made a decent decision so I’m not expecting much.

As i recall, GL:Rebirth was 6 issues not 8, And that was the first of 2 Rebirths: Flash: Rebirth brought back Barry Allen. Plus we have no clue if Rebirth Will be an event or more of an umbrella for the relaunch, like New 52 or All-new, all-different Marvel.

Welcome to the cynical circle, Todd! :)
Only two comments:
– comparing Dr strange and Thor numbers doesn’t seem fair at all, especially for the Doctor. The last ongoing serie for the doctor was so much time ago that there is no real point of comparaisons, except that Dr strange was never a huge seller, but did manage to keep its ongoing title during more than 20 years.
– the creator mix is quite different. Many names are new and some associatiosn are quite new, let’s be fair. We can’t say that Marvel hasn’t put a lot of innovative titles with this relaunch. Of course, if you only lokk at the big titles, nothing has changed much, but the rest of their catalog is quite daring and innovative (and expensive too :p ).

Looking at the diamond numbers for the past couple of years gives such a flawed idea as to how its doing. Its not like the way it was in the past where the direct market is the main sales number and even then the Diamond numbers were still flawed. It doesn’t take into account the rather sizable digital numbers, where books like Spider-Gwen have such a huge audience that’s not reflected in these numbers. All the numbers to is allow people to manipulate them and show a small example in order to push their agenda.

“It doesn’t take into account the rather sizable digital numbers, where books like Spider-Gwen have such a huge audience that’s not reflected in these numbers”

And where can we see this digital numbers? I can totally believe Spider-Gwen selling big online but I’d like to check out the sales figures myself.

Mike

Bob, who’s your source on Spider-Gwen’s digital sales? The only digital comic at Marvel I’ve gotten confirmation *from Marvel* on a consistently percentage of digital sales is Ms. Marvel. From what I could tell, and I couldn’t get a straight enough answer to suit me, Ms. Marvel seemed to be selling close to (but not quite) print numbers in digital. Which was an anomaly. If Spider-Gwen is doing the same, then that’s two books out of the entire line.

Depending on who you talk to, digital is still 10%-15% of total sales and since there’s no more newsstand for Marvel, that leaves 85%-90% of the sales to Diamond. It reflects the reality of the Direct Market, where many retailers rely on Marvel to get them into the profit column each month.

But really, accusing somebody who wrote a book on how the digital market works of ignoring digital to push a print agenda? Grow up. There’s better trolling to be done than that.

To be fair on Dr Strange, Marvel tied the incentive for variants on Dr Strange to Thor, so Marvel expected some sort of comparison. Sadly it was exceed 175% of Thor to get the variants, so they expected it to far outsell Thor

From an artist perspective that Iron Man Cover looks okay, but the computer lettering with all those style filters (embossing) added looks hideous. I don’t collect super hero books these days, but I would think all the movies and cartoons out there are creating a somewhat over saturation of the market. Perhaps people are looking elsewhere for something new. Rebranding of things don’t make for new.

Marvel need to do something to create buzz beyond the first issue. How they do this I don’t have the answer, but I would say this would need to be a long term thing and not reliant of the variant covers. Possibly they could do a big push on the tpb collections with an attempt get people to jump onto the floppies after.

Great analyses Todd! Good to see you here.

Once the delays and extra issue were announced I dropped Secret Wars. It was the first Marvel event I’ve indulged in since 2010 and I don’t see any reason to do these anymore.

I’m trying all of the #1s but reboot fatigue, lack of star talent and cost are looking like ANAD is a jumping off point for me. It’s looking like I’ll settle around the 6-7 title mark where pre-Secret Wars I was at the 15-16 title level.

Same thing happened with DC’s reboot too though. These reboots tend to shake the tree enough that I guess I’m one of the old base that falls off and haven’t really come back in any substantive way. I guess it’s up to some new fan to take my place at the superhero shops at this point.

I suppose Marvel should just switch over to an “every issue is a #1” relaunch! Maybe an Amazing Spider-Man #1, Amazing Spider-Man #1 (and in tiny print 1.1) and A,mazing Spider-Man #1 (1.2), and so on. ;) I jest, I jest, but I swear, this is how it’s going. At some point the companies (not the fans) decided the only thing that sells are #1’s and variant covers. It’s the usual short-term money making thinking, unfortunately. And the fanboys blindly fall into the trap, and become addicted to the idea, as well.

But also, wow, the new creative teams on these relaunches are just a big no for me. Even my best friend, and we’ve both read comics since we were in grade school, told me every single Avengers relaunch is horrible. We both bought them all before the relaunch, after, every single one dropped. And The Vision, Starbrand and NightMask, Scarlet Witch, Dr. Strange, etc. – it’s just a personal preference, but the whole “indie” art thing at Marvel has killed my desire to buy these books, books that, if they had a more “traditional Marvel art style” I’d probably snatch up! I think overall the relaunch is just a mess in terms of characters and creative teams.

I personally like more “realistic” artwork, which is why most of my money goes to Independents now. Butch Guice, Alex Maleev (one hold=over at Marvel), Mike Perkins (the other), Michael Lark, Bill Sienkiewicz, Steve Epting, Gabriel Hardman, etc. All, at one point, Marvel artists…

What are they gonna do with the other 18 pages?

In other variant cover compilations they did in the past (like the “art appreciation” covers, funny that no one complained that those were appropriating the classic European art culture…) half the pages were cover reprodutions and the other half were the artists explaining what were their inspirations. Those were quite interesting, I must say.

How many pages of Amazing 1 and Avengers 1 are simply preview? Tha would really be disapointing if, in the end, those extra size made the reader pay extra for only preview pages.

They’re not preview pages, they’re all original stories. But he’s they’re just acting as preview pages with no real need to not read them and just wait to buy the actual books.

Hey what happened to Superior Iron-Man? Was there resolution to that idea, or is he still ‘as much of a jerk as usual as a result of whatever that crossover series decided’?

ANAD Point One #1 gives you Agents of SHIELD, Carnage, Contest of Champions, Rocket Racoon & Groot, Daredevil and All-New Inhumans.

Amazing Spider-Man #1 gives you separate stories of Web-Warriors (5 pgs), Spider-Man 2099 (5pgs), Silk (5pgs), Spider-Woman (5pgs), and Miles Morales Spider-Man (7 pgs).

Avengers #0 gives you Avengers, Uncanny Avengers, New Avengers, Ultimates, A-Force, and Squadron Supreme.

Out of about 20 titles previewed with this first wave, I was looking at 7 titles that were covered in some form or another by these books (even though I read all of them).

I’m walking away with 3.

“Pass, stopping here with all the Spider-verse books except Silk, Spider-Woman and Spider-Man 2099”

So by “all except” you mean half.

I had the same question about Iron Man’s shift from “Superior” to “Invincible;” and I’m really surprised by the thumbs down to Spidey – I thought that was a dynamite first issue, well-written and gorgeous to boot.

The solo titles were all pretty good. Never been a fan of paying for what are essentially previews.

[…] Follow this link: Comment on A Month Of Venturing Into the All-New, All-Different Marvel Universe: Recapping Week One … […]

Thanks Evan! Chris: well, it seems those are original short stories.

That was…really too long an exchange of Twitters to digest for an article. I would have found a summary with one or two excerpted tweets more effective.

And, not to ignore the wider problem this article presents but enquiring minds (well, mine) want to know…will Batman ’66 and Sensation will continue to be released digitally, or will they be cancelled as well as the floppy reprints?

DC is still publishing comic books? ;)

Hi John,

Thanks for your comment. I got overzealous with the tweets– didn’t realize how long the conversation was because it seemed much shorter in my head! I’ve parred them down some.

According to solicits, the December issues for these titles will be the final issues for all formats. I will look into this further and clarify if I hear anything to the contrary.

I doubt that the Digital First comics will continue.
The numbers seem to have been calculated from “can we sell enough via digital + paper + graphic novel?”
If those numbers don’t add up to a profit, then it’s not going to continue with just one format.
In the old days, it was “newsstand + direct market + subscriptions”. Many marginal titles had better profits when newsstand copies were omitted (Ka-Zar, Micronauts, Moon Knight).

How well did DC market these new titles?
Why did Ms. Marvel become an overnight sensation, but not Prez?

I see the point TalesOfRacShade is making — I’m one of (I assume) many people who pick stuff up late, or purchase and then read late. I picked up a couple of the relaunched titles in June and didn’t get to reading any of them until Labor Day. (That’s what happens when your to-read pile is taller than the nightstand it sits on.) Now I’m going back to catch up on the ones I liked, but the damage has been done and the books that didn’t show strong interest by August will be canceled. Because most books simply don’t get a fighting chance, they’re often gone by the time their audience finds them.

It’s just the nature of the beast, though. I think it’s more of a general issue with monthly superhero comics and its sales channels than any bad decisions made at DC.

A lot of ground covered here:

Sad to see both Batman ’66 and Sensation Comics go. I bought both occasionally, but they were pretty confused packages.

The Batman book had the trappings of the TV show and good likenesses of the actors involved, but *unlike* the show it was played straight, not camp. So what audience was this for? I assume the nostalgia crowd (and in this day and age, that can’t be a very big crowd), but then it didn’t go all in. Sort of like putting on a production of Grease and taking out the songs. The stories were fine, but without the parody, it ended up being pretty mild (though the Kevin Smith/Ty Templeton mini with the Green Hornet was fun and the Len Wein/Harlan Ellison/Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez special was quite beautiful.)

Sensation Comics had a similar schizophrenic profile. Some of the best, accessible, all-ages Wonder Woman stories in a long time, unfortunately behind covers that often portrayed The Amazon Princess as a crazed warrior splattered with blood. I know covers in comics have a long history of not reflecting the exact contents, but I can’t imagine the audience for either one of those types of books being satisfied with that combination.

It makes me both sad and angry to hear these stories of sexual harassment behind the scenes. Especially when it involves people who are working on characters that are supposed to be heroes — examples of our best ideals, not our worst demons. DC, if this is going on, please get to the bottom of it and root it out. Not only for the sake of your workplace, but for Superman, Wonder Woman and all the other inspiring icons that the world looks up to.

And Torsten, I think Ms. Marvel had the advantage of a lot of media coverage outside of comics *and* being a superhero comic in the Marvel Universe. Prez is on its’ own in its’ own little corner of the world with no capes and tights.

The problem with DC is that they don’t give the smaller books a big marketing push. Although, I did notice that there was some attempt for The Omega Men with it having a big spread in the back pages for a month or two. Hopefully this is the kind of title that does alright in TPB and warrants a new miniseries in the not too distant future.

All of the Digital First titles have had limited lifespans, such as Adventures of Superman and Legends of the Dark Knight. Sensation had 48 digital weekly releases. That’s no small potatoes. After each one wraps up, a new one with a new character comes around the corner. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a Flash or GL anthology Digital First series next up to bat.

For the record, Cullen Bunn confirmed on Twitter that “Lost Army” ends with issue six.

@Hardy: Ouch. So Lost Army wasn’t just cancelled; it was stealth cancelled. That must hit hard for the creators, to say nothing of readers who invested in the story.

Yeah, the Omega Men news hit me kind of hard, particularly after having been geared up for a twelve-issue run with a clearly laid out beginning, middle, and end. Add my voice to the choir of being cheated as a reader to be paying money for what will never be more than half a story.

And Alex DeCampi’s remarks just make me sad as a consumer. I loved Sensation Comics for its diverse storytelling, its introducing me to the work of a number of spectacular creators, and its being the iconic Wonder Woman book that I’ve felt had been missing from the stands since Gail Simone’s run on the title ended. (Azzarello and Chiang are a good “alternate” take, but separated from their storytelling, the N52 character is Generic Warrior Woman #49, not Wonder Woman.) Agreed with the poster who lamented the covers never matching the tone. That’s been a real sticking point for me with the book.

Basically, what made Sensation distinct is that between its covers, it was a feminist book. De Campi’s revelations about the Superman office at DC… I sincerely wish I could say I were surprised to hear her statements out loud. And it saddens me. The DiDio / Lee / Harras regime needs to topple. It feels to me like they set this new direction up for failure from the get-go, between the timing, the horrifyingly awful marketing, and now the company’s failure to see through on their own promises to their readers…

Is there any good news to come out of DC? I mean… Batgirl, Black Canary, and Doctor Fate are cool, and they’re still going. There’s that, right…?

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Teri

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Jessica,
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