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Is this guy always so dramatic? So basically, to make a living, he’s doing work-for-hire and selling his art. Wasn’t that always an option? Why’d he have to basically threaten to shuffle off and die in the dark to do it? People do it all the time.

” you can’t ignore the only 6,000 page graphic novel forever, I don’t think but it has been ignored for twenty years and there’s no sign of it being paid attention to.”

Eh. I tried the first CEREBUS phone book and was underwhelmed. A lot of folks talk about how great it gets later on, but…

1. Why should I invest time in something like that when there’s so much great stuff out there which doesn’t require me to wade through the merely okay?

2. Much of the praise of CEREBUS is that it becomes so artistically/creatively interesting and not that it’s a really outstanding piece of entertainment.

Dave Sim seems like a great example in comics that everyone needs and editor and that doing high quality work isn’t enough in and of itself. You have to do stuff people actually want to read.

Mike

@MBunge Cerebus is one of the few comics that successfully self published -for 300 issues no less. An amazing feat unequalled by anybody. It’s a testament to both it’s artistic and “stuff people actually want to read” (as you put it lol) appeal.

“Cerebus is one of the few comics that successfully self published -for 300 issues no less.”

Where’s the money? I mean, maybe Dave Sim lived life like a rap star with a posse and gold chains and “makin’ it rain” at the strip club every Friday night, but that’s not the impression I got. The impression I get is that Sim spend a long time publishing a comic that relatively few people read and which isn’t proving to be a perennial best seller in the trade market.

Mike

Well, actually he was quite a “rapstar/rockstar” back in the day when he was younger:) Cerebus was one the closest things to rock in the comic book industry back then. Considering how many years ago since the last new Cerebus material -and that he and Gerhard have been basically living off that…i don’t know too many examples in the comicbook industry you’ll find that even compares. On the contrary it’s an industry that has a reputation for treating it’s artists abysmally.

“Considering how many years ago since the last new Cerebus material -and that he and Gerhard have been basically living off that”

I’d appreciate it if anyone can correct me, but my impression is that the last few years of producing Cerebus were like the Bataan Death March. The book wasn’t selling. They weren’t making any money off it. They were just bound and determined to see the thing through.

Mike

Most self-publishers would have killed for the the numbers they were getting even towards the end lol Sure all art, indie movies, books, music etc could stop being alternative and go mainstream and make even more money.

“Is this guy always so dramatic?”

Obviously you are not very familiar with Dave Sim.

“Most self-publishers would have killed for the the numbers they were getting even towards the end lol”

1. Do you know what those numbers were?

2. The homeless guy who has to cover himself with newspapers while he sleeps envies the homeless guy who has a refrigerator box to live in. That doesn’t mean the guy living in the cardboard box really has it that good.

You can be as arty and indy as you want. I certainly salute Sim for doing it the way he wanted it done. But we should all understand there can be and often is a big downside to that sort of thing.

Mike

Is Cerebus worth reading/entertaining? I’d place “High Society,” “Church & State,” & “Jaka’s Story” alongside the best comics of the 1980s.

There’s a huge downside to integrity period -for sure. But considering that Dave lives in one of the nicest neighborhoods there is in what is probably a million dollar home all paid for….he’s hardly homeless.

@MBunge: Don’t even bother “wading through,” then. The second, third, and fourth Cerebus phonebooks (“High Society,” “Church & State I,” “Church & State II”) are some of the finest comics I’ve ever read (yes, as pure entertainment, not merely as political statement or creative curiosity), and you won’t be lost by skipping the Conan pastiche that the book started out as.

@MBunge: “Do you know what those numbers were?”

Plucking a random issue from the Comichron archives, #287 (just over a year before the end) sold 6805 copies through Diamond, which would usually put it around position 200-250 on the sales chart. That’s at a level better than most lower tier Image/Dark Horse/IDW/Dynamite/etc. books.

As many have above have said, High Society, Church and State and Jaka’s Story are all high water marks in comics, both from an artistic and entertainment standpoint. Essential reading for any fan of the art. We’re talking something like issues 26-136 or so.

Things started getting a bit wonky with Melmoth. The artistry was still there, but it got a bit dry.

Picked up nicely again with the next plotline, Flight, which began to unveil much of the backstory Sim had been teasing us with for 150 issues. That plotline (along with Women, Reads and Minds) took us through issue 200 whereupon the “plot” portion of Cerebus was basically done.

Sadly around issue 186 Sim went on an anti female rant, declaring women to be “voids” consuming the substance of the masculine or something like that., that caused him to sever ties with many of his allies in the industry, most notably Jeff “Bone” Smith. Smith and his wife appears in that very issue, thinly disguised. This was around the time that Sim had a religious conversion.

The last 100 issues are gorgeous to look at, but difficult to read. Things hit a low-point in Latter Days when Cerebus spends 20 issues or so reading the Torah with his acolytes the Stooges while ranting about Woody Allen (I kid you not.)

I really wonder how Cerebus would have ended if Sim had written the ending when he was in his 20′s. The Sim who wrote High Society was not the same Sim who wrote Latter Days.

Y’know, for someone who’s gone on and about the dangers of the feminization of males in modern society, Sim is just a huge drama queen.

Also if you are near Arlington, VA on June 10, there will be a ‘Team Cul de Sac’ book launch. Here’s more info: http://www.curls-studio.com/curls/?p=1603

I think this is one of the most significant info for me. And i am glad reading your article. I am going to share this with my facebook friends. Thanks a lot.

Hearing that a MG novel ended up a major deal makes me very, very happy. Congrats to Sara and her author!

Awesome week! Love the photo!! :-)

Stefan Bachmann seems super nice, and I love the name of his book and his blog (Scathing Jellyfish--that is a cool blog title). Congratulations to everyone involved!

THE PECULIAR sounds awesome. So excited that it's middle grade. Congrats to Sara!

I need some help. I've just written a book for the first time and am soon going to re-read it, make some edits, and put it in manuscript form. My problem is that I don't know what to do after that. I've read that I need to get an offer from the publisher before I can get an agent but I've also read that without an agent a publisher won't accept my book (I've also read up on getting reputable and competent agents and from what I've seen, you seem to fit both categories).

So do I finish my manuscript and then send a query to a publisher, or to an agent?

Nothing says "I'm a country girl" like a cammo pinafore, and the baby ducks "that I'mma gonna shoot wif dis here gun soon's mah daddeh teaches me how ta shoot 'er!"

Love the photo.
The gun, the smile, the innocence, the ducklings!

Where did you get that adorable photo of yound Sarah Palin? ;)

That is something I worry about a bit. Do I focus so intently on getting everything write in the mechanics that I lose my own voice? I don't have an answer to that yet.

I work odd hours so I can definitely relate to the 'jet lag' feeling and yes pushing through it is sage advice. For me, the hardest part of traveling is finding time to write. It feels odd doing it on the plane with a pair of eyes hanging over your shoulder. Then the late night dinners cramp the hotel time as well, so alas when does one blog, edit, or write. As for finding the balance with voice and mechanics, yep, I would again agree. I wish there was a magic button I could press at the end of a chapter that took care of all my grammatical short comings. As with your previous advice, the trick I've found is to 'suck it up' and push through the editing process.

Sounds like an awesome conference that I wish I could attend. I met Kelley Armstrong at a book signing and she's the nicest.

I'm at the conference but missed out on getting into this workshop, places filled up quickly! Sounds like its going to be very insightful. Though I imagine some of the feedback will be hard for people to hear. Good luck!

Yeah, I've seen the voice be critiqued out. I recall recently noticing in an online writers' site how several new writers diligently followed every piece of advice from their critiquers, and the revisions got progressively more boring. The 'spark' of the writers' individuality vanished, and at the same time, they were praised by each person who saw their fix completed.

I was once told to stop using a particular sentence construction because, while grammatical, it seemed "consciously affected". I scrubbed the offending construction from that piece. I noticed it in other pieces, removed it, and halted myself each time I started writing it. Then, I caught myself typing it in emails and found it in documents I had written for work years ago. At that point I decided that it was not "consciously affected" but in fact just the way I write. Not using it was taking a whole lot more conscious effort than just letting my voice out.

It's hard to know when to stick to your individual quirks and when to conform -- I wonder if writers need to go through a conforming stage in order to find what elements most rankle them, and then let those bits out again as their voice.

How timely. I often feel constrained in my efforts to write "properly" that I'm not staying true to my voice. I'm a little nervous to let the characters be who I instinctively believe they should be. Writing well is a real art and craft that must be honed.

I believe my husband would welcome a momentary suppression of my natural voice. Great advice.

Great post! I worry a lot about the mechanics of my writing mainly because I DON'T have a background in English--unlike just about every other writer I've met! I know the importance of good grammar, but I've also run into what I call "grammar snobs" that favor mechanics over all else. Maybe I'm way off here, but I don't see a problem with taking mechanical liberties from time to time--especially if doing so enhances the story.

I've seen writer's get their voiced washed out. It's usually because they don't know how to evaluate the advice they are being given so they do everything that everyone is telling them.

Nine times out of ten, a writer needs to evaluate the advice, figure the heart of the problem themselves (if there really is one) , and solve it their own way.

IMO, it's also worth it to spend several months following other people's critique process (especially online), before posting something of one's own. That way the poster gets a good feel for the personalities and which ones they regularly agree/disagree with.

This is also a confidence issue involved.

I think this is SO true and not just of manuscripts. As someone who has participated in an on-line writers community for years and watched people post their query letters for comment, I've seen queries made bland by committee. Since voice is, imo, a deal-breaker I think writers have to be very careful not to lose theirs in an avalance of well-intentioned suggestions. In fact I actually blogged about this myself:

http://www.fromthewriteangle.com/2011/05/voiceits-not-just-for-manuscripts.html

Interesting blog. When I do critiques with my online buddies, I provide the disclaimer that anything I mention is meant to help but that if it doesn't jive with their voice, they should toss it. Writers have their own voices...and I suppose the best thing is do as mentioned near the end of your blog...find the balance between voice and mechanics.

And yes, we new writers are slightly hopeful of discovery...hopeful of being that .01%.

It's true, and it doesn't even have to happen in a workshop. My writing was fine grammatically before, but when I really started paying attention to the "rules of writing", it got pretty dry and boring for a while. It didn't have the same voice or obvious passion behind it because I was trying to adhere too strictly to guidelines. It takes a while to figure out how to balance voice with craft.

This happened to me - the "rules" passed from one writer to another, doing their best to cure what wasn't sick. Once I began trusting in my voice like my gut told me to, I began to have success.

Having one's voice critiqued out of you happened to me in a crit group I anonymously attended a year back. The others in the group read the first pages of a book my agent sold to a major house, and found it to be full of fail.

Every line that was not Strunk and White perfect got the chop and one even asked me "Who's your target market?"

So true about the staying up to adjust. In another life I was an international flight attendant for United...I lived in a perpetual state of jet lag.

As to voice, critiques, mechanics...I think very seasoned writers eventually get to the place where they can feel what feedback is either
1.dead on
2.somewhat helpful in a modified form
3.coming from someone who just doesn't get it

I think it's a matter of having enough confidence and insight into what you are doing to not just get blown away by every strong winded opinion.

And, for the record, I'm not there yet.

Yes, on the voice getting critiqued out of you - I wouldn't stop using critique groups, but I've learned I don't have to take every comment into account - only if what is said resonates with me or shows that what's in my head isn't making it onto the page.

As for hoping to be discovered in workshops, well, yes, there's that secret hope that beats in everyone's heart, but realistically, I've always done workshops for professional feedback - finding out what I'm doing that isn't hitting the mark. That's priceless. (But I've also learned not to do too many workshops as well. They can become a false victory, a substitute for real achievement in writing, if that makes sense.)

Laurie

I learning to express your unique voice takes a lot of hard work, self-discipline and dedication to getting better at the craft of writing. I think slogging through a lot of good and bad critiques is all part of the process. It helped me learn to purposely choose every word and know why I used it. Voice developed from that after a lot more hard work.
Thanks for sharing.

Watching this happen--regularly--to queries under critique is one of the most aggravating parts of using a writing forum. I have been known to run counter to popular opinion, and urge the writer to keep the voice at the expense of so-called perfection. I have also said--repeatedly--that a writer needs to be able to evaluate the critics and their advice as well.

Lehcarjt, I agree with you 100%. It IS a confidence issue, along with a mix of desperation/inexperience. But so help me, it drives me crazy to see it happen.

Added to which, writers are invariably more critical of each other than anyone else, which may stem somewhat from insecurity (thus an excessive attachment to the "rule book.")

I've seen this happen a lot. I've seen crit groups get so focused on "rules" (like, literally, telling people to never use "was" in description) and technical "perfection" that they just sucked the life out of the stories. I've read so many that I can say don't have errors but have no spark. It's sad.

I USED to feel constrained by the mechanics of writing until I realised that I have the freedom to do whatever I want. I now view spelling, punctuation and grammar as an art form and not an exact science - it's so much more fun ;0)

I think this is something that does happen, with alarming frequency. I have taught creative writing, and participated in many many workshops, and I think the problem stems from the something in the structure of the workshop itself. My experience is that students/participants sometimes get too focused on "NOT having anything bad said about my story",which makes sense in a way, given the context. So risks aren't taken, voices aren't explored. Part of it is that often there are people with several different levels of experience in the same workshop, part if it is that, a lot of the time, the participants are set up as "the teacher". I do think a lot is gained from having your work critiqued, but I sometimes wonder if the traditional workshop setting is the way to do it. Too often you're told what's WRONG before people figure out what it IS. But I don't know of a better way, at least at first, at least in some circumstances. But I don't think mechanics get in the way of your voice. Without the mechanics, we can't understand enough of the writing to *hear* the voice. It's not the mechanics, I think. I think The Traditional Workshop needs a revolutionary model

Kristen, your workshop was fantastic and you did not seem jetlagged at all. We all appreciated your honest and direct comments on our work. Even those whose work did not get read out raved about the worshop. So from all of us down under, thankyou.

What Peta said! Also, re the wanting to be discovered thing, I'm sure there was an element of that, or at least of hoping to hear that 'mine is the one she won't stop reading!' But I think most people who submitted their pages probably felt as I did that, tough though it would be to hear, they Needed To Know. If you feel your work is ready, or nearly ready, and it isn't you need to know, so you can fix it. For me, many of the things you highlighted I understood and hope I don't do, but there were some that were a little startling. It was a case of 'Really? That's a deal breaker? I would have let that go. Man, back to the red pen for me!'

I know it must be a bit confronting for you too, to do these workshops, because you are such a nice person and don't want to upset anyone, but we really, really appreciate the insight. It's invaluable. Thank you.

What a great source of information. Thanks :-)

I'm amused by the fact that all your readers want to know the answers to the same questions little kids asked.

Heck, I was one of them.

Thanks!

I never realized that movie rights were so stacked against the writer. That's just sad - "worse than the mafia." Wow.

Wow, the movie rights being the way they are really surprised me. Great questions and answers.

I was surprised by the movie rights answer. Thanks for this.

But doesn't the author get something when their book is optioned?

Great answers. I had no idea how the movie deals work. Not surprised you know. Thanks.

I'm going to copy Natalie. I had no clue how author profits on movies worked.

Loved the questions; loved the answers. Thanks for sharing this!

I wish I could say I was surprised by the answer on movie rights. I know enough about that industry to not want to try to sell any of my screenplays.

This is a fabulous idea! Unfortunately I'm a little low on funds, so I can't bid. But I'm so glad you guys are doing this. I hope you raise a lot of money.

This is so cool. Any chance you post the crit online if the writer agrees?

Times like this I wish I had money. Darn student loans, interfering with my ability to spend hundreds of dollars on an awesome critique. ;)

Bummer...certainly wish my novel was edited to the point where it would be worth bidding...

D'OH! I just bought a condo. No discretionary income right now. :'(

Thanks for doing this, Kristin! I've had type 1 diabetes for 25 years and would love to see a cure during my lifetime.

Thanks for the heads up! That's very generous of you.

Would love to take advantage of an opportunity like this. My manuscript is ready to go but I am having difficulty fitting it into a neat and tidy genre package! That is to say, if I were to describe it how I feel I should describe it, it would be A ROMANTIC FANTASY ADVENTURE. So you see my dilemma. If I peg it wrong, I may get passed based on the genre I have chosen. I am reluctant to simply call it a ROMANCE or FANTASY ROMANCE or ROMANTIC FANTASY...well you see what I mean. I would love someone to speak to this issue. Can I call it a ROMANTIC FANTASY ADVENTURE without risking an auto pass?

This is an awesome opportunity for someone with some bucks. Unfortunately being unemployed for over a year, that won't be me. Still, I'm bookmarking for next year.
At least while I'm not working, I have lots of time to write!

Love Pub Rants!